If you want to bend down in the fields 16 hours a day picking cabbage, all the more power to you. Many of the jobs that are being "taken" by illegal aliens are jobs that they can't find anyone else for. Our own farmers here in WNY rely heavily on them because they can't find anyone else willing to do the backbreaking labor that these hardworking men and women perform.

that's bull crap beth, there taking good construction jobs restraint jobs, their in all fields of work.there in the hotel work , you name it there taking up jobs.

I know migrant workers are important to our area, but They are not illegal. I cant say too much more coz it seems like my other post disappeared about this topic.

Given that the penalties for hiring illegal workers are pretty substantial, don't you think businesses that hire illegals would prefer to hire qualified domestic workers if they could find them?

Companies have even been fined under RICO laws for using illegals to keep wages artificially low.

Employers also risk losing their work force at critical times after an INS raid.

So where is the advantage in businesses hiring illegals, except that is the only labor they can find?

I know some legal migrant workers that come to this area for seasonal work and are happy with their low wage becoz they cant find paying jobs where they come from. Believe it or not most of the DONT want to live here for many reasons they just appreciate a job making a low wage to us but a very favorable oppurtunity for them. They are some of the most happy and positive human beings ya ever want to meet. I am totally against illegal aliens becoz they break the law, but I dont see them stealing anyones oppurtunity for a job.

The "jobs" that people complain about are minimum wage 8+ hour a day labor jobs. I snicker at people that really think the jobs that "illegal aliens" have really hurt our economy.

I read about a study done a few or more years back that not having illegal immigrants performing these jobs would make us worse off. The reasoning behind this is that any legal American citizen has the opportunity to get the education to have a career job and none of these jobs that illegal immigrants find pay anything more than $10/hour, if that. A good portion of these jobs are related to farming and manufacturing. Try to imagine if suddenly every illegal immigrant was deported. What do you think would happen to the farming and manufacturing industry?

Would or could any of you really work 40+ hours a week, no break, all labor, and only minimum wage or less in compensation with no medical benefits while continuing to support your family?

See the problem? Our society exploits these people and would fall apart without them. Sad truth, but it's reality.

Very good point Chris. You are wise way beyond your years. Here's an article that I found about how the immigration raids on our local farms have hurt the farmers:

http://www.usapple.org/industry/aglabor/northeast_farm_credit_report.pdf

Well, they are not illegal (have greencard) they get NYS minumum wage minus room. work a few months. GO home.
All legal. The illegal is different. Smother the ethics and go with shear national security. The govt. can say something but ever try to drive to canada/mexico/ or fly ? the sword cuts both ways.

there more illeges then illegal here . i have no prob with the illegal ones.

The point is Illegal..Means you are breaking the law ..plain and simple..Doesn't matter if you are doing day labor jobs no one else will do...Illegal is Illegal..

Yes, Mark, and people who break the law should be arrested. But an equally fair question is maybe the law needs to change so that entering the country for legal migrant work is easier and better managed and more humane?

What law needs to be changed..There are alot of Legal Migrant workers,how did they get here..They obeyed the law and applied for work permits..but for some reason many choose to not too,And those are the ones i have a problem with..They come here and expect us to give there children a education,allow them to use any and all social services..Maybe the Mexican government needs to be held more accountable for they way they treat their people .

Or the Mexican government has little to do with it.

These "illegal" immigrants are looking for a job, and it the illegal ones that get the jobs I previously mentioned. Can't piss and moan to the Department of Labor if you're illegal, unless you want to get deported.

It has little to do with how they're treated in Mexico.

I'm not directly arguing legality either. I'm simply explaining what would happen if all of these illegal immigrants were deported.

I just want to point out that mexicans get a bad rap coz, well first they were here in America before u and I, but there are a lot of "illegal" immigrants from southern America that sneak in and abuse the system. If you remember correctly most of the southern and western land was actually part of mexico. Heck ever been to New Mexico ?
Also, if i remember correctly then the term "wetbacks" was adopted to label the illegal immigrants that traveled by sea from areas farther down south like puerto rico and Cuba, especially after world war two and in the kennedy administration when the bay of pigs incident brought Miami Florida an enormous amount of South American Defectors to Miami Floridas coastline.

"Wetbacks" came from Mexicans crossing the San Diego river into San Diego County.

As for changing the laws -- make it easier for migrant workers to come into the country ... more visas that are easier to get, and then ensure documented travel and work.

As for New Mexico, etc. being part of Mexico -- google Aztlan some time ... there's a whole vocal minority within the Mexican-American community that believes the U.S. stole the Southwest from Mexico and that it should be returned.

The Mexican government has a lot to do with it..Why aren't they providing a better standard of living for their people..Why do they want to come here..Because their country sucks and is corrupt..Thats why Chris...Why is their problem our problem...We got enough problems,with our own corrupt banking system..They are just adding to it..So it has a lot to do with how they are treated in Mexico.They have crappy school systems ..Their health care is bad..So lets go suck off the USA....

Do you have any proof to back up these claims?

In addition, you obviously haven't understood anything I've said.

Chris,
As far as Mark's statement about the Mexican government, just look at the murders on the boarder right now. What is the count now for killed, 7000? No jobs, a history of corruption and now drug lords trying to take over whole cities. It's on the news every night now.

Sorry Chris, but Mark and John are right here. I know it's not a popular position, but the only entity that can solve our problems with illegal Mexican immigration is the Mexican government.

Read the papers and watch the news coming out of Mexico and ask yourself if you would live there voluntarily. Think about what lengths you would go to to find a better life.

It's easy sometimes as Americans to view the world through our (relatively) prosperous lens. If you had no chance for decent health care and your wife was pregnant wouldn't you make an attempt to cross the border? Take into account that Mexico has nearly three times the infant mortality rate than the U.S. has. Would you do it then?

What lengths would you go to to put food on the table if you couldn't find a job? We're fond of saying that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do. Would you take a job that you think is 'beneath you' in order to put a roof over your head? When you're too poor to feed and clothe your family you flush your moral compass and your ego; you do what's necessary.

Now pretend you're the Mexican Government. You have no money and no handle on the safety and welfare of your people. Are you going to enforce the border or are you going to wave happily to the flood of nationals hightailing it for the nearest industrialized nation?

The thing is, this problem is bigger than our stale opinions about illegal immigration. We spend a lot of time talking about the effects of illegal immigration but not the causes. It is in the interest of the United States to have a safe, stable, prosperous Mexico on our southern border. We need to assist them with law enforcement in their country so they don't become a burden on law enforcement in our own. We should exert serious pressure on the Mexican Government to put an end to the systemic corruption that is bleeding the people dry. Most importantly, we should share ideas and resources in the hope that Mexico can be a place where Mexicans can live safely and in relative comfort.

What good are we, as the greatest nation in the world, if we are unwilling to provide ideological and physical assistance to a country in peril? Are we so driven by our own ego that we can't recognize the danger of an unstable government on our southern border? Let's not forget that unstable Mexico is the only buffer between us and the real problems in South America.

We're building a house of cards on our own continent; let's not let our egos be the cement.

You're incorrect, Chris. Mark and John are not right. Putting the blame on the Mexican government is different than trying to fix the Mexican government in which case, you're also wrong.

You can't force help on someone that doesn't want it. I'm tired of people considering the U.S. as the "father figure" for the rest of the world. I'll admit that there are some drastic situations that require our involvement, but it is not our job to fix all the evil in the world, whether it's in our best interest or not. I'm not saying that Mexico doesn't need help, but who the hell are we to force it on them?

To counter one of your remarks, every American has the opportunity to get the education needed to find and keep a "decent" job at minimum, with decent covering all of the immediate necessities. A house, food, clothes, maybe a car and insurance. The jobs that Mexican immigrants get are worse than your run of the mill Wal-mart retail or fast food job. Don't for one second give me that cock and bull crap that one of us would take the same jobs as illegal immigrants. Part of the reason they don't work at Wally World and Tim Hortons is because they're ILLEGAL. We aren't.

Regardless, I'm done. I've said all that needs to be said. If no one is going to listen, oh well. There's always Canada when everything hits the fan.

It's easy enough to tell me I'm wrong without actually disputing any of my facts. If you think it benefits the U.S. to have an unstable Mexican government on our southern border then I defy you to defend your point.

By the way, please keep threatening to move to Canada if the situation here goes awry. There is no other thing you could do to better prove my point. Hey, maybe the Canadians will have some jobs that they're not willing to do anymore that maybe you could have.

Mexico has to solve its own problems. We can't do it for them. In the meantime, we have to deal with reality, which includes both the reality of illegal immigration and the absolute economic need for migrant workers in the U.S. The situation in Mexico, while tragic and troublesome, is absolutely beside the point.

It amazes me sometimes our utter lack of understanding of cause and effect. Putting up a fence or deporting illegal aliens won't fix the problems that brought them here in the first place. We're like Hercules fighting the Hydra.

Chris, you did the same thing to me in your original post. At first, I was going to ask you to explain how an opinion can be wrong, then I came up with the brilliant idea to do the same thing to you. Obviously, you liked it just as much as I did. Here's some future advice. Don't do it to other people.

I'd continue defending my points, but you're one of those people that is awful to debate with. You ignore valid points that argue or disprove your own. You change topics and don't read (comprehend might be a better word) the text in front of you. I've already explained myself in previous posts to questions that have already been asked. I'm not going to reiterate myself if people don't take the time to read.

You don't defend your own points with anything valid (thus far) and act like you're correct right off the bat. To top it off, your last comment about "disputing your facts" made me snicker. You don't seem to understand the difference between fact and opinion, but I digress.

The entire point of this thread right here is illegal immigration and the IMMEDIATE issues stemming from it. Not the problems Mexico and its government is facing. That's something separate. Moreover, I haven't said anything about "benefits the U.S. to have an unstable Mexican government on our southern border" as you put it. That topic is something you've been stuck on in a few posts. Phrasing it in a way that it looks like I have no opinion or I think it's beneficial isn't going to help you. See the second paragraph on why you shouldn't do this.

If you take personal offense to any of this, I apologize. I've never been the kind of person to beat around the bush, sort to speak. I know it can make me come off as intimidating and rude, sometimes downright mean. All that being said, suck it up. I mean that in the nicest way possible.

At this point, I'm done. This thread has been derailed far enough. If you or anyone else feels like debating about something with me other than the immediate topics being talked about here, I urge you to take it up with me in private or create your own thread on the matter.

However, this isn't my site. I can't stop you or anyone else from derailing this thread. I can just encourage everyone not to. Reality is that you can do what you want.

Oh, one last thing. Packing and heading to Canada wasn't a threat. It's been my backup plan for years if things really get ugly. I'm still in the process of trying to obtain dual citizenship.

I never said put up a fence or do anything to stop them. My position has been all along: Make it easier and safer for them to come here, work, and return.

No you didn't say that Howard; I was just using it as an example of some of the 'solutions' we've come up with. For the record I support your position on having a guest worker program.

To Chris Olin,
The state of the Mexican government is absolutely germane to the problem of illegal immigration. If it were more stable and safer, there would be less incentive for people to illegally immigrate. The illegal immigration problem and the illegal drug trade and its accompanying violence are proof that without addressing the situation in Mexico, we're trying to stop a flood with a snow fence.

And, in your posts, you falsely accuse other writers of exactly the things you do in your own posts. And, just curious here, how many times to you say you're done with posting comments before you actually mean it?

Chris, I stated facts about systemic corruption, non-availability of health care, infant mortality rates and the effects of unstable governments bordering our own. You chose not to dispute any of them.

To allay your fears about my delicate psyche, you are neither intimidating nor rude. I hope that the discussion here leads to more people researching the problems in Mexico and how they relate to the illegal immigration problem.

To Russ Stresing,

I encourage you to prove everything you've said. That's the difference here. The things I'm saying I can provide proof, facts, and studies. Some are readily available. Some I might have to spend some time searching for. I don't make idle claims. I base my opinions (or what I like to call educated conclusions) on fact. In the end, what course of action to do is opinion and can neither be right or wrong. It's about which will provide the best outcome, which is the entire point of debating opinions.

Blaming the problems in Mexico on the Mexican government is the no different blaming the problems with our country on our government. Neither are responsible with everything that goes wrong in their own respective countries. You can't blame our government on the Rochester city cop that was shot in the head a few months ago. Do you see what I've been trying to get across?

To clarify, "I'm done" does not mean "I'm done posting comments". That's putting words in my mouth and not much different from what Chris tried to do with his whole line about having Mexico on our southern boarder and left unstable.

I believe I said "I'm done" the first time I had to repeat things I already pointed out. I don't like repeating things I've said. I especially don't like repeating things I've typed out.

Debating is an art and is offensive by nature, kind of like porn. Try not to take it so personal, and that isn't to just you. Too many people here are starting to, or seem to be taking offense to having their opinions and comments argued. That's the whole point of debating.

Chris you haven't said much in this thread other than the jobs that illegals take aren't that great and that the illegal immigration problem isn't the fault of the situation in Mexico.

I can find a way to agree with your first point, it's the second point that I take issue with. Now if you want to debate about whether or not it's the United States' responsibility to do something about the instability in Mexico then you can take the isolationist view, I'll take the interventionist view and we're off to the races.

I'll give you a fact Chris..Look what illegals are doing to California..They can not support their school systems or health networks because of the burden that Illegals are putting on the system..And it is Mexico's fault...They are like refuges coming across the border to this country to find a better way of life that Mexico wont give them..Were is Mexico's stimulus package..Why are we going in debt for generations to come so that we can have a good and strong economy for US citizens to prosper...You want to run to Canada,go ahead..What happen to honor...

To Chris Olin,
Here's a couple links that might interest you. The first is a parody of Schopenhauer's treatise on how to have a logical debate. The other is his actual treatise.

http://www.indiauncut.com/iublog/article/38-ways-to-win-an-argument-arth...

http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/schopenhauer/arthur/controversy/complete...

"Blaming the problems in Mexico on the Mexican government is the no different blaming the problems with our country on our government. Neither are responsible with everything that goes wrong in their own respective countries. You can't blame our government on the Rochester city cop that was shot in the head a few months ago. Do you see what I've been trying to get across?"
Not at all, Chris. I've no idea what point you're trying to make. Both governments are very much responsible for what goes on in their respective countries. And the idea of an increasingly unstable situation on our southern border is very concerning, even without immigration and drug trade. While we aren't responsible for all the world's salvation, it certainly would seem to be in our own nation's self interest to do what we can this close to home.

The point of the reference to the wounded police officer escapes me completely.

Mark, California's politicians also can't raise taxes as easily and arbitrarily as New York (two-thirds popular vote required on all new taxes and tax increases -- the governor there couldn't even think of proposing a soda pop tax). To what degree illegals contribute to tighter budgets is debatable. Besides revenue constraints for the state, migrant workers contribute billions of dollars in revenue growth, thereby helping the state budget.

Some people thank the illegals for doing the jobs in the field that nobody wants to do, that is fine, but they need to pay taxes. I lived in Florida for ten years and had to deal with alot of illegals in the area. They come into town do all the field worker jobs but don't pay any taxes. They send their children to the public schools, where because they don't speak English, my tax dollars had to be for them to have a special aid to go with them all day and translate for them all day. The class has to be slowed down so the translations can go on through the class. However, these children are not being forced to speak English, just keep the translater with them all day, which my tax dollars pay for. Then to get a note home from the school stating it is mandatory for my daughter to learn how to speak Spanish. When asked the school, I was told it was so it would make the children that can't speak English more comfortable, but no don't teach them English. Then the illegals go to all the different service providers and get all these donations, free housing, free food, all sorts of vouchers to get this that and the other thing. If you go through a migrant town in Florida you will see these illegal migrants driving custom painted vehicles that cost more than what I make in a year. They also get free daycare through other state and government run services, which are being paid with our tax dollars. And here is the other issue, which a true fact around where I lived in Florida. An illegal migrant was driving down the road drunk, came up to an accident in the road ahead of him. A state trooper was in the road, near her car with the lights on, there were flares and other emeregency vehicles on site with lights on as well. Well this illegal migrant, was going 120mph, didn't slow down a bit and hit the state trooper instantly killing her. His punishment, he was deported. I have seen first hand living in an area in Florida where these illegals suck up all the services in the area, they don't put any money into the economy, they pay no taxes, and most of their money is sent back to their home country. Anyone who truly believes that these illegal migrant workers boost the economy, you really need to do some more research. They suck up all the services in the area then go to another area. I worked in state probation and when the migrant workers were in the area, crime rates more than doubled. So, they need to go back to their own country and keep our streets safe. Here in Batavia, you don't see how bad they suck up the resources, so of course they are wonderful, after seeing what they do in other states, I am outraged that people think they provide so much to our economy.

Interesting post. Are you saying that all migrant workers are illegals?
There are many legal migrants who come to Western NY to harvest crops.
I'm not denying that there isn't a problem with those who come into our country illegally, but I don't believe in painting everyone who does a menial job with the same brush.

I don't believe I stated all migrant workers are illegal. The issue at hand is the illegal migrant workers, who suck the system dry wherever they go. And I don't think I stated that all migrant workers are illegal. The regular migrant workers that do come to the area to work the fields I have no problem with, they do the jobs that others don't want to do. But if you read my earlier post, I am targeting the illegal migrant workers. Being in this area you don't see the problems that the ILLEGAL workers create. I am not narrow minded to lump all migrant workers into one category. I have lived in an area where the workers are illegal. I had to watch on television down in Florida the illegal workers march for all these rights they should have, but they are not willing to pay taxes, learn English, and send their children to the public schools and are afforded more services than the taxpayers of the area. How would you feel if your child came home from school and told they have to learn Spanish to communicate with an illegal alien that is in their class, and that child gets a private translator, which your tax dollars are paying for? Plus they get free daycare, that tax dollars are paying for, and free housing, that your tax dollars are also paying for? This area you don't get exposed to the high volume that I did in Florida. And if you re read my earlier post, I did not lump all migrant workers into one category, I specifified ILLEGAL

Greg,as I read your post from above,we in NY have the same problem as you describe-it is called WELFARE!!!!! Difference is, illegals WANT to work...... I agree w/ you-they should be taught English,not the other way around. The farmers here now go through a process in order to make sure the people they are hiring are legal.If you want some serious problems-go live in southern California-my brother does and says it is being taken over by illegals-no wonder why that state is broke-and this state isn't far behind....

Bob, I totally agree with you. Yes the problem around here is welfare, but in Florida it is just as bad. I worked for the state down there, Florida's version of DSS. To see the way the system is raped the way it is there, and up here is just horrible. Well, that is a whole other topic for another forum. We are talking about the illegal people. The hard working public that pays taxes, to have all that hard earned money just go to waste on the illegal workers who take advantage of the system but also the people on welfare who keep playing the system. I will give the illegal workers the credit they do work hard, but they realy don't put the money back into the system, they don't pay taxes but use up the resources. I have never been to California but I can only imagine how bad it is there. I know how bad Florida is, so California must really be bad.

They do somewhat put back into our community-shopping at local stores. All I know is that I couldn't do the work they do-I used to work w/ legals,illegals? when I was in high school and a few years out-I tried to do it,but they had to pick my row and do theirs also to keep up to the wagon(picking cucumbers).

Let me see if I understand all this....

IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR......

IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY....

BUT, IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET:

1. A DRIVERS LICENSE
2. A SOCIAL SECURITY CARD
3. WELFARE
4. FOOD STAMPS AND
5. FREE HEALTH CARE?

I guess I still don't understand...