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May 14, 2010 - 6:59pm

Hawley votes against 'anti-Second Amendment' bill

posted by Billie Owens in batavia, steve hawley.

On Wednesday, Assemblyman Steve Hawley voted against legislation introduced by the Assembly Majority that he claims further imposes on the 2nd Amendment Rights of lawful gun owners and places costly mandates on firearm manufacturers.
 
“The legislation introduced...is an absolute violation of the 2nd Amendment Rights of New Yorkers," Hawley said in a news release. "Although the intention of the legislation is to prevent violent gun crimes across the state, the fact is that most gun-related violence is committed by criminals who obtained their firearms illegally.
 
“Unfortunately, the Assembly Majority has disregarded this fact, as these new restrictions will not only end up hurting the sportsmen who value the tradition of hunting, but also the small businesses and manufacturers that they support.

"Instead of continuing to place more restrictions on law-abiding citizens and businesses, the Majority should be working on legislation that will help pursue the criminals who obtain their firearms illegally.”
 
Assemblyman Hawley opposed bill A.6468-C, which requires that manufacturers micro-stamp ammunition, and bill A.10894, which requires firearm owners to re-license their pistols every five years. Both bills passed. They were introduced as part of what Hawley calls the "Assembly Majority’s annual Anti-Gun Package."

“Protecting New Yorkers from violent gun crimes should not be done in a way that hurts law-abiding citizens. I...will continue to vote against future legislation that violates our constitutional rights."

Dave Olsen
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While I'm glad Hawley voted against this bill, I don't want to have any further assaults on the 2nd amendment (or any other constitutional rights). Why are they not concerning themselves with the state budget, only the state budget and nothing else? Please everyone, remeber this crap come election day.
John Roach
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The re-license idea is just another "fee". It's a money grab and has nothing to do with public safety.
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You've got that right John. This is the 3rd or 4th year in a row that they've tried to make pistol permits renewable. Each time it was about raising revenue. I guess this time they figured they'd get less flack if they called it a public safety bill. And microstamping ammo is a joke too. When a bullet impacts something it deforms. Alot. A stamp would be illegible after impact. Traceabiliity after a bullet is used is a pipe dream.
John Roach
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If you steal a gun, what makes the idiots think that ammo will not be stolen also? But this is an election year and they want to look like they are doing something while not passing a budget.
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John is absolutely right. The micro stamping is useless. This is simply a way to make it look like the politicians are doing something about gun violence with out actually doing anything to address the problem.
John Roach
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CM, Since you are "considering" running against Hawley, as a Democrat/Green, where do you stand on this?
Chris Charvella
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John, C.M. is out of town this weekend so he's probably not going to see this thread. I had a pretty detailed conversation with him about firearm issues and what he told me was that he doesn't believe in fees and 'punitive taxation' as a solution to New York's Budget woes. We all know that that is pretty much what this bill amounts to. Chris Barons has a deep respect for our hunting and shooting traditions and, if in Albany, would be working hard to get guns out of the hands of criminals without affecting our hunters and sportsmen. The other side, of course, is that while Hawley seems to understand where the real gun problem lies, he doesn't seem to be very busy doing anything about it. Hawley said: "The Majority should be working on legislation that will help pursue the criminals who obtain their firearms illegally.” OK Steve, I'll bite, why aren't YOU working on it. You seem to have an understanding of the needs and rights of law-abiding gun owners. You should be just the right guy to help hammer out some meaningful legislation, but instead, every year you just wait for 'The Majority' to get it wrong so you can vote 'no' and tell us what a great job you're doing.
Howard B. Owens
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Chris, let's say Steve sits down and writes a nice little piece of legislation. Then what?
Chris Charvella
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He won't.
Howard B. Owens
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Here's a list of Hawley sponsored legislation. It's not accurate to say he's doing nothing. Though his legislation tends to be fairly procedural (though I didn't review every bill). The fact is to take on bigger issues, where it goes contrary to the majority wishes, any minority party member would be stymied. It's like running your truck into a brick wall. No sensible person would do it. I'm not defending Hawley, but I continue to find this drumbeat of "but instead, every year you just wait for 'The Majority' to get it wrong so you can vote 'no' and tell us what a great job you're doing" completely disingenuous and not based in reality. It's either a willful ignoring of reality or simply not understanding how the legislative process works. And that's what bugs me -- not anything to do with Hawley. Run against Hawley, but tell the truth.
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It's accurate to say he's doing nothing about criminals with illegal weapons and that's what this conversation is about. None of those bills have anything to do with the issue we're discussing. If you want to argue with me, don't use unrelated material to do it. I find that practice completely disingenuous. Defend Hawley, but tell the truth about facts related to the matter at hand.
Howard B. Owens
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Chris, the "he's doing nothing line" has been a meme on this site for months. It's more than just about this issue. It's a theme that his political opponents seem to be trying to develop. In my opinion, it ignores reality. I'm not defending Hawley. I'm defending reality.
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The "Hawley's doing nothing" meme reminds me of "truthiness
Chris Charvella
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Howard as soon as you stop defending Hawley every chance you get, I'll take that seriously. We site specific issues that Hawley is currently doing nothing about e.g. the budget, illegal guns in the hands of criminals, unfunded mandates stemming from Leandra's Law, etc.. Those are realities, care to disagree?
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It's not a 'meme' either; rickrolled is a meme. This is just an occurrence of more than a few people noticing a trend.
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Chris, I understand that your job as the Democrat party election chairman is to get your guy elected. But to not admit that Democrats run all three branches of the State and that they are the problem, is a bit of a sham. What part of you're in total charge have we missed? You can say Republicans did nothing when they where in charge, no argument. But your side (The Democrats) have are running the show now for a few years and have done nothing. When will they give us a balanced budget this year?
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What are the chances that Howard and John are going to talk about the original subject of the thread: Slim to none I'd say. Downstate Democrats obviously have some interest in getting illegal guns out of the hands of criminals. Steve Hawley obviously has an interest in ensuring that that sort of legislation doesn't adversely affect upstate sportsmen. This is a perfect opportunity for the two interests to work together and get something meaningful written and passed. I'm saying that Hawley has no interest in actually working on this because it's easier for him to let the Downstate Dems run rampant on hunter's Second Amendment rights and then blame all Democrats for it. This isn't that difficult to understand. Three men in a room aren't writing gun legislation.
Chris Charvella
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and John, it's the Democratic Party. Easy enough to spell it right; it's on all of our letterhead.
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Chris, Reread what I said at first. I stated this is nothing but a money grab and the idea of marking ammunition is stupid, costly and will do nothing. The bill also will do absolutely nothing to stop illegal guns (Chris, bad guys don't license illegal guns). There is no working with Democrats on this issue. It has come up before, been defeated, and they keep bring it back up. It's about taking more of our money. There is no need for this bill at all, none. Hawley did what he should have done, voted no. No need to reword or rework it, just don't pass it. But I would ask you again, when will you Democrats give us a balanced budget?
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Truthiness .... It used to be, everyone was entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts. But that's not the case anymore. Facts matter not at all. Perception is everything. (Cobert) Listing Hawley sponsored legislation on a thread about the imposition on the 2nd Amendment Rights of lawful gun owners and the costly mandates on firearm manufacturers presents the "perception is everything" part of truthiness. Many people aren't going to look at that list and will just assume that all of that legislation has to do with the topic at hand. Not so. As a matter of fact at least two have to do with insurance. Wouldn't you think that legislation in the area of Hawley's business would be a conflict of interest?
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I read what you wrote John and I agree with most of it. Now go re-read what I wrote. I said that Hawley is in a good position to assist in writing useful gun legislation that will not affect our hunters and sportsmen. He's just not bothering to try. The budget is a fiasco, but a fiasco unrelated to the subject at hand. What the hell though, I'll play your game. You're saying that Hawley can't do anything about the budget, he can't do anything about protecting our hunters and sportsmen from punitive fees and ridiculous laws and he can't protect his district from unfunded mandates. So why should we send him back to Albany? $70,000/ year is a lot to pay a guy who is seemingly unable to do his job.
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Chris, Because if we send your guy, we'll get more of the same and no dissenting voice. By the way, NY has passed about every law you can to limit both legal and illegal guns. And it has not worked. Bag guys don't read the law. And the Assembly has not been willing to take the laws already on the books and lengthen the prison terms with new mandatory sentences, and to deny parole to felons who use guns in crimes.
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Oh, I get your logic now. Hawley is completely ineffective, but we should assume that anyone else is going to be as well. That is the most patently ridiculous thing I've ever heard.
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Chris wrote, "This is a perfect opportunity for the two interests to work together and get something meaningful written and passed." But the major assumption on your part is that there is somebody on the opposite side that Hawley could actually work with. Look at what the downstate interests are doing with the Farm Labor bill. It was defeated, but rather than accept the defeat and sit down with the Farm Bureau (which Dean Norton said the FB would be willing to do) and work on compromise legislation, a downstate Democrat (who has no legitimately representational interest in this issue) reintroduces the bill with only cosmetic changes. This is how Albany is run. And unless and until those in control of Albany are willing to sit and negotiate on complex issues like reasonable people, nobody who is outside of the circle of power is going to be able to do anything to address the problems facing the state. Again, I'm not defending Hawley. How many times do I have to say that, Chris. I'm reacting to what I see as a sham campaign line. It is a smokescreen to avoid addressing the real problem in Albany. I'm hoping Chris Barons will run. I'm hoping the Democrats of the district will put him on their line and back him (without making him switch parties). I think Chris can effectively engage Steve in a productive and beneficial debate on real issues. As your own party members have said to me, even if Steve wins, engaging in a campaign against Chris could help him become a better legislator or help put some issues on the table. There are a few things I'm critical of Steve on, especially his support of Leandra's Law, and I think he's not really in tune with the district's position on things such as medical marijuana; and you know I'm no fan of partisanship, and I don't see Steve breaking out of the party mold. There are issues that Barons or anybody else could run effectively against Steve on, but this "Steve is doing nothing" meme (and it is a meme, or an attempt to create one) is complete hogwash and is a smokescreen to avoid talking about the real problem in New York -- and the real problem is in Albany, not in Batavia. And I see that kind of disingenuous campaigning as counter-productive to the interests of Genesee County. We need to have an honest discussion about the real issues and how best to address those issues, not a campaign of ad hominem attacks.
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Howard, Hawley is doing nothing and we've cited examples. As a matter of fact, we've been citing them since well before there was going to be a contested race. This isn't new and it's not going to go away just because you don't like it. We tell you the reasons we think Hawley should no longer hold office and you tell us that they're 'hogwash.' Then you say that you're not defending Hawley. That's as much as I would expect from a person who believes there's 'no such thing as objective fact.'
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Also a definition of internet meme since I assume you don't mean meme in the genetic or evolutionary sense: At its most basic, an Internet meme is simply the propagation of a digital file or hyperlink from one person to others using methods available through the Internet (for example, email, blogs, social networking sites, instant messaging, etc). The content often consists of a saying or joke, a rumor, an altered or original image, a complete website, a video clip or animation, or an offbeat news story, among many other possibilities. In simple terms, an Internet meme is an inside joke, that a large number of Internet users are in on. An Internet meme may stay the same or may evolve over time, by chance or through commentary, imitations, and parody versions, or even by collecting news accounts about itself. Internet memes have a tendency to evolve and spread extremely quickly, sometimes going in and out of popularity in just days. They are spread organically, voluntarily, and peer to peer, rather than by compulsion, predetermined path, or completely automated means. The term "Meme" was coined by Richard Dawkins in his 1976 pop-science bestseller, The Selfish Gene.[3] The term may refer to the content that spreads from user to user, the idea behind the content, or the phenomenon of its spread. Internet memes have been seen as a form of art.[4]
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From what I can see, C.M isn't even running yet, but you have already started using the negative buzz words like, disingenuous, campaign of ad hominem attacks, avoid talking about the real problem in New York,sham campaign and counter-productive. Who exactly are you directing the buzz words, C.M or Chris? I was at the meeting and listened to C.M. speak. You are right about one thing, you wrote, "I think Chris can effectively engage Steve in a productive and beneficial debate on real issues.". It is too bad you weren't there to hear him speak. It was a breath of fresh air.
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Bea, This was about Hawley voting against two laws that will do nothing to stop crime and are just a money grab. The license renewal has been defeated before, but the Democrats in the Assembly keep bring it back. I asked CM what he thought. Instead of CM answering (he's out of town and we would have waited), Chris answered for him. And then we were off to the races. CM is running, but not nominated yet. He has to line up support from the other counties in the district and hope an enrolled Democrat does not want to run. But he is running. Chris, You said CM is against fee and punitive taxes to solve the budget, then I look forward to him stating that Mr. Silver and his majority party is wrong on these two money grabs.
Howard B. Owens
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Chris, you left out this portion: "The term Internet meme (pronounced /ˈmiːm/, rhyming with "cream"[1]) is used to describe a concept that spreads quickly via the Internet.[2] The term is a reference to the concept of memes, although this concept refers to a much broader category of cultural information." And Chris, below is the very definition of "disingenuous" "Howard, Hawley is doing nothing and we've cited examples." What you continue to ignore is that even God Himself couldn't do anything if He was a Republican in the Assembly. Your examples are meaningless, because even when you personally ran and were elected as a Republican, you couldn't do any better. You're demanding of Steve that he be something that nobody could be. You're welcome to keep bashing away at the same hollow claims, but you do yourself, your party and Genesee County a disservice with this smoke-and-mirrors act. How about sticking to issues instead of ad hominem attacks? Though C.M. has left comments attacking Hawley along the same lines, I'm hopeful, given his intelligence and breadth of knowledge, he can and will run an issue-oriented campaign and stay away from the mudslinging. But given your position in the party and your unwillingness to recognize that your attacks are without substance and just, in fact, mudslinging, I'm not feeling too hopeful about that at the moment. And Bea, stop twisting what I say. It gets really old. I'm not debating Barons here. I'm not even taking a position against C.M. And it's a shame the only way to discuss this issue is by including the names of Hawley and C.M. Barons, or Republicans and Democrats, because my issue has NOTHING to do with any of those proper nouns. It's about lobbying for an honest, issue-oriented campaign that deals with reality, not fantasy about what whomever is elected is able to effectively do.
Chris Charvella
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John, Howard stopped just short of calling me a liar twice this morning. A lesser person may have taken serious offense, instead, I simply clarified my position and restated the facts. The pro-Hawley, anti-Democrat opinions that have showed up in this thread have taken on a tone that I find a little silly. Even the story's headline is a regurgitation of Hawley's opinion. The gist of what I'm hearing so far has been: The big, bad Democratic Party is picking on poor, defenseless Steve Hawley. Anyone who knows anything about local politics should be laughing their heads off right now. Maybe Howard should invite Steve to defend his positions and explain his inability to address serious issues by leaving a comment or two in this thread, or anywhere on this site for that matter. I'm sure all of you will demand that Chris Barons engage you in the comment section, why not hold Hawley to the same standard?
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Here's another definition for you, Chris, with some irony: An idea that self-reproduces like a virus; a catchphrase or concept, or other unit of social currency. Example: "Where's the beef?" Source: http://www.oskoui-oskoui.com/glossary/M
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Howard, I've been discussing the specific issue of gun control and what I think Hawley should be doing about it all morning. Maybe your understanding of 'ad hominem' differs from the actual definition. Your entire last post was an explanation of how Hawley can't possibly be an effective legislator, why should we support him then?
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and nothing here is spreading 'quickly via the internet' Howard. It's just you and me trying really hard to remain polite while a few innocent bystanders wonder why the hell the tone this morning is so acerbic.
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Chris, I came nowhere close to calling you a liar. I'm openly questioning your political tactics and saying why I think it's the wrong direction to go. I've certainly not been pro-Hawley or anti-Democrat. I've made it VERY CLEAR that this isn't about Hawley/Republicans vs. Democrats. Those are just nouns in the conversation. This is about truth in campaigning. It's about the concept of demanding of a person that he do that which is impossible and then faulting him for not being able to that which is impossible. It's like blaming the doctor for his failure to revive a corpse that's been in the grave for 100 years. Or for blaming the astronaut for not bringing the entire Moon back in his lunar lander. Or blaming the 12-year-old for not pitching the perfect game in the MLB World Series. The "Hawley has done nothing" meme is as based in reality as believing George Bush was a good president. This "The gist of what I'm hearing so far has been: The big, bad Democratic Party is picking on poor, defenseless Steve Hawley. Anyone who knows anything about local politics should be laughing their heads off right now." is just a complete twisting of anything I've said. It's simply ignoring the substance of what I'm saying. "I'm sure all of you will demand that Chris Barons engage you in the comment section, why not hold Hawley to the same standard? " Where the hell does that come from?
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Chris, when you wrote, "but instead, every year you just wait for 'The Majority' to get it wrong so you can vote 'no' and tell us what a great job you're doing. " You opened the door to topics other than gun control because you're hitting on a theme that has been common for several months now: Hawley does nothing. To try to particularize that concept as to applying only to this thread is to ignore the larger issues at play. I've not sensed anything acerbic in the tone. We've just been debating. What I'm waiting to hear is what you would do in his place ... pretend you're a member of the Rose Party and the Tulip Party controls the Assembly -- what do you do to get any major piece of legislation passed that the Tulip Party has always said they oppose?
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Howard Said: 'Run against Hawley, but tell the truth.' I've been telling the truth all day, you have been inferring the opposite. Howard, I'm not sure you understand how laughable it is for you to say you're not defending Hawley while at the same time attempting to scold me for attacking him for lack of effort on a specific issue.
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Perhaps the Republicans should instead nominate Don Quixote to run in Hawley's place.
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Howard, I've been talking about gun legislation, you took this thread off into the ether. I already stated what I think should be done. You said it's impossible. You're wrong.
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Posted by Howard Owens on May 15, 2010 - 1:45pm What I'm waiting to hear is what you would do in his place ... pretend you're a member of the Rose Party and the Tulip Party controls the Assembly -- what do you do to get any major piece of legislation passed that the Tulip Party has always said they oppose? Sorry, I can't resist. If I were the Rose Party (your favorite flower, by the way, not surprised you chose it to be "Hawley"), and the Tulip party controls the Assembly, what do you do? Just exactly what is being done. Throw as much manure (ie: press releases) against the wall and hope some of it sticks.
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Bea, I didn't choose it to be Hawley, I chose it to be Chris Charvella. There, you go again, twisting what I say.
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Chris, prove I'm wrong. What example can you cite of the majority party compromising with the minority party to pass a piece of legislation where they start with significant differences? I cited an example of a case where downstate interests have adamantly refused to sit down and reach a compromise position with upstate interests. What counter example can you cite?
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BTW, Bea, I also love Tulips. I'd plant hundreds more in my yard if I had the time and the money. One of the things I love about New York in spring vs. California is all the Tulips.
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Sure Howard, but Chris Charvella isn't running for anything is he? Hawley can defend himself, let him. You engaged in this discussion because you didn't like what I said, or the way I said it. Tough cookies, I stand by it all and I backed it up to boot. Taking issue with my approach is, in itself, a defense of the other side. If it wasn't then you would be taking Hawley to task for simply complaining about 'The Assembly Majority.' It's the same sort of argument, but you didn't seem to have a problem with it before.
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Call Sheldon Silver if you want answers to that question Howard, I'm not your secretary.
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Chris, where have you backed it up? I just don't see that. You've made lots of assertions, but offered no proof. "Taking issue with my approach is, in itself, a defense of the other side." Bunk. It's taking issue with a form of argumentation that lacks substance or any qualification of being backed up by valid data. You're welcome to stand by it, but as an disinterested observer, I'll stand my observations. You're welcome to attack me as being somehow "taking Hawley's side," but that doesn't invalidate what I know to be true -- which isn't not about Hawley, it's about dealing with reality. "If it wasn't then you would be taking Hawley to task for simply complaining about 'The Assembly Majority.' It's the same sort of argument, but you didn't seem to have a problem with it before." That is a circular argument.
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Chris, One of the reasons I supported you in your election bid for the County Legislature was to have a voice of dissent. You were not going to have any influence if you had won, none, zero. But you would have stated your case. Hawley does just what you wanted to do, but you say he should go. By that logic then you should not have been elected and Hollis was the better pick. And for the record, you did say CM does not support fees or punitive taxes, but he fully supports the proposed tax on soft drinks, which punishes consumers. That money, if passed, would to the general fund. Was that a "lie", a misstatement, heat of the moment, or what. As for Hawley defending himself, that's true. But you're the one who decided to speak for somebody else.
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Howard, Hawley has not written any gun control legislation that targets criminals and keeps the state's hands off of hunters and sportsmen. He says that's what 'the Majority should be working on' inferring that he has no responsibility to participate. That's what this is about, that's where this started. It doesn't get more black and white. and no, Howard, it's not a circular argument; if you claim to stand on principle then you should do so both when it hurts your cause and when it benefits you.
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John, I spoke for Chris dealing only with that specific issue. The rest of this has been an occurrence of Howard telling me that I'm not allowed to tell people what I think Hawley is doing wrong.
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Chris, I thought you would know by now, even if your on the right committee, the minority is ignored. And if you're not on the right committee, don't bother writing anything because it will not be accepted. That's just the way they run things And there are more than enough gun laws now on the books. I don't want the majority writing any more. What they should do is up the penalties for gun use in a crime, but Mr. Silver does not support that. And again, if he does not support it, it is dead.
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John, Respectfully, 'That's just the way they run things,' isn't an acceptable way of doing business, I think we can all agree on that. If we're going to operate on that sort of logic then why send anyone to Albany at all. We could save the taxpayers $70,000/ year plus office and staff budgets that way. If a politician tells you he can't do anything useful, then why send him in the first place?

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