Genesee County Sheriff to Hunters: Be wary of straying on Indian land

Posted by Philip Anselmo on November 14, 2008 - 10:56am
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Genesee County Sheriff Gary Maha issued the following press release today:

Sheriff Gary T. Maha cautions hunters not to hunt or stray on property of the Tonawanda Indian Reservation in the town of Alabama. "It is the hunter's responsibility to know where they are," Sheriff Maha said. Hunting or fishing on the Reservation by a non-Indian is prohibited.

Hunters who hunt or stray on Indian Land may be subject to Tribal Law, which could involve having their guns seized and heavy fines assessed by Reservation Chiefs or Indian Marshals. Law enforcement cannot help in these situations, except by keeping the peace. "The Tonawanda Indian Reservation is a Sovereign Nation and we have to recognize that," the Sheriff said.

Recent meetings have been held between representatives from the Tonawanda Indian Nation, the U.S. Attorney's Office, New York State Police, New York State Department of Environmental Conservation Police and the Sheriff's Office to discuss this issue. Nation Chiefs have the right to enforce their laws on Reservation property.

Over the past couple of years there have been incidents involving the seizure of firearms from hunters who have strayed onto the Tonawanda Reservation and the Chiefs have imposed fines. Members of the Tonawanda Nation and law enforcement wish to avoid any confrontations in such cases and wish to educate the public of the possible consequences of hunting on Indian land.

Posted by scott rytlewski on November 14, 2008 - 8:38pm
they steal your gun then what do they do handcuff you to a toetum pole this is bazzar we are still in the usa even though its sovern land give me a break
Posted by lazario Ladou on November 14, 2008 - 8:55pm
Yeah
doing what you can to keep people from stealing the land you have remaining is absurd

Adverse Possession, you know
Basically the same thing
essentially granting license/easement to everyone and eventually people will lose respect for your property and try to claim it's now public and once that occurs it's pretty easy to see the ending of their culture in whole
Posted by Woyvel Lloyce on November 15, 2008 - 10:30am
Who exactly is carrying out the act of confiscating the firearms if the trespasser says 'No, I'm not going to give it to you?' Is it a tribal peace officer, the NY State Police or a deputy sheriff? The Nation relies on the state and county for this, don't they? That doesn't seem consistent with being a seperate entity, under seperate laws, from the area around it.
Posted by scott rytlewski on November 15, 2008 - 11:01am
this sounds like a good expisode of bonaza hopefully they will return little joe unharmed
Posted by Daniel Jones on November 15, 2008 - 1:25pm
Indian Reservations are treated more or less like commonwealths and are typically able to handle their own internal affairs. Under law they are able to confiscate your firearm if you are caught trespassing. Will they actually do it? I'm not sure.

My Indian nation is Canadian, and there the rules are slightly different, they can hold you in a tribal jail for up to 24 hours.
Posted by scott rytlewski on November 15, 2008 - 2:03pm
DO THEY REALLY HAVE TRIBLE JAILS we need to get are costume jewlery back this get more bizzar the more people chim in i think these crosses the line they are in the usa
Posted by John Roach on November 15, 2008 - 3:04pm
If you don't like what they do, tell all your friends not to shop on the Res. Money talks.

On the other hand, how many private property owners wish they could do the same thing to keep them off their property? The vast majority of hunters know what they are doing and know where they are. But some should not be allowed out of the house let alone in the woods with a gun.
Posted by Daniel Jones on November 15, 2008 - 4:23pm
Scott, it would be appreciated if you could check your stereotypes at the door.

Tribal territory is as per signed treaties, its federal law that's enforceable, if you don't want to get in trouble then stay off of Reservation lands without permission.

It's not a hard thing to do.
Posted by scott rytlewski on November 15, 2008 - 5:04pm
what stereotypes i have no problems with native american but we all live in the usa under one set of laws native american have reaped the rewards of a history they learned about like you and i in history book, so if someone tresspass on there land they should be held to the same penaties as if they tresspass on your land no speacile rules for anyone in the usa take someones gun on your prperty by gun point and watch and see who goes to jail it wont be the tresspasser


so do they have trible jails or not
Posted by Daniel Jones on November 15, 2008 - 5:10pm
"they learned about like you and i in history book"
Scott, if you didn't get what I said before, I'm Indian. The difference is that they are Sovereign nations and they have their own governments and laws and aren't subject to the same set of laws. Granted the police do have jurisdiction and enforcement of broken laws when requested for assistance, otherwise tribal lands are tribal lands. This goes back to treaty agreements.

Your mention of the 'costume jewelry' I had a red-flag on, but if you didn't mean it in the way that I thought that you did, then thats fine.

Yes, in Canada they do, I'm not sure about the States.
Posted by scott rytlewski on November 15, 2008 - 5:29pm
no malse at all dan, i grew up with the whole Froman family, now thats one tight family all good guys and i also witnessed some trible rutuals at one of ther family get partys i thought it was great that they are proud of there hairitage and pass it to future generation


i just think when they take people guns and they face fines for making a mistake like tresspassing that alot more harsh than if a hunter wonders on to a farmers land ,a police officer or a dec officer give you a ticket and you go to court and pay a 50 dollar fine

personally never hunted never will just thought this was a intresting subject where two sets of rules apply
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 16, 2008 - 5:49pm
If you're the sort of hunter who goes into the woods and ends up blundering onto property you have no business nor permission being on, I'd rather you weren't hunting. I don't own property but if I did, the thought of someone with a loaded weapon, yet so clueless as to not know who's property they're on, kinda scares me. Just to spare the general population any possible injury or alarm, its probably better that we relieve people like that of their weapons.
Posted by Brian Hillabush on November 16, 2008 - 6:25pm
Even stupid people have the right to own guns
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 16, 2008 - 6:48pm
Is that how you justify owning yours?

Junior, if a person is so clueless as to bring a loaded weapon onto your property without your permission, doesn't that make you the least little bit uneasy?
Posted by Brian Hillabush on November 16, 2008 - 7:06pm
I do not own a gun and have fired one once.
Senior, we have rights in this society and owning a gun is one of them.
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 16, 2008 - 7:17pm
Taking that gun onto others' property is not your right.

I'll t-y-p-e s-l-o-w-l-y: I own guns. I've fired many, many, many times. Government issued .45's. M-1's. Twin 50's. M-16's. Shotguns. Handguns. Over-unders.

Your gun rights do not allow you to take loaded weapons onto other peoples' property. Should you do so, I hope that someone takes that weapon from you and imposes a penalty.
Posted by Daniel Jones on November 16, 2008 - 7:19pm
You have the right to own a firearm, you don't have the right to own a firearm and go onto someone else's property, I know some gun owners that are that dumb and frankly the fact that they have a deadly weapon and freely carouse around property that they have no idea whom the owner is makes me very nervous.

I'm against most forms of gun control, for the record.
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 16, 2008 - 7:38pm
Guns don't take you to work. They don't plow fields. They don't transport produce or product to consumers. Its easier to buy an automatic shotgun than it is to get licensed to drive a car or a truck.

I like guns. I grew up around them. I admire the discipline of people who have developed proficiency with these tools, as I admire those who've mastered any other tool. I would advocate that more people develop a familiarity with the staggering power of firearms.

The indiscriminate ownership and use of fire-arms adds nothing to American society. If you're the sort of person who believes that you need a gun to defend yourself against your own government, then I say to you, "En Garde".
Posted by Robert Harding on November 16, 2008 - 11:34pm
I support the 2nd Amendment, even though the amendment was created during a time when muskets were the "tools of the trade" at that time. Of course, I don't think our Founding Fathers knew that they would have people around with semi-automatic weapons trying to use that same amendment as a basis for their right.

I have heard all of this talk about people going out and buying guns because Obama became president. Gun control's goal isn't to put the clamp on hunters and other gun lovers out here in rural areas. Gun control is to protect citizens of urban areas who are more at risk of gun violence. If you see a gun in Genesee County, chances are that is being used for sport or someone using it for protection. In the cities, guns are used to commit crimes. That's an element of the gun control and gun rights debate that is missing.
Posted by John Roach on November 17, 2008 - 6:29am
Gun control always starts out with good intentions, but then gets out of control. There is no way around the fact that the high crime rates are also in areas with the greatest gun control, such as Washington DC and NYC.

But that is not the point here. It is hunters going off into the woods, not knowing or caring where they are and going on to private property. In this case, Indian land.

Maybe the hunters should have checked where they would be hunting before the start of the season? Maybe see if they would be allowed on the property?
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 17, 2008 - 9:43am
Strict gun control increases crime, John? Or maybe population density has a lot more to do with it.

Actually, NYC, with its strict gun control, does turn out to be safer than a lot of large cities in states with softer gun control laws.

http://www.bestplaces.net/crime/?city1=54819000&city2=53651000
Posted by lazario Ladou on November 17, 2008 - 10:36am
I'm all for gun control until we decide education is and will forever be our #1 priority

Caught "need to know" -show about rochester- day ago and they had two HS aged kids on talking about their outreach program Teen Empowerment Youth Conference & Speak Out
"break the generational curse" being their mantra
The young man could barely put a sentence together, at times appeared to be ashamed and so gave up
The young lady spoke quite well but seemed a bit pre-recorded

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20081105/NEWS01/811050319/10...




Anyone catch "seriouser"
You could tell he had thoughts
No education, though

in jail? ..really?
Posted by John Roach on November 17, 2008 - 5:16pm
Try Texas, where you can own a gun without all the regulations like we have in NY. Crime rates are lower in their cities than the same size ones that keep people from owning a gun. NYC, DC, Detroit, all high crime cities with very strict gun control. Closer, try Rochester.

The cost of a pistol permit in this area is for no other reason than to make it too expensive for most people to get one.

Again, the point of this thread is hunters not knowing where they are and going on private land and native Americans protecting their property and treaty rights. Try not to wander off it.
Posted by Gabor Deutsch on November 17, 2008 - 5:21pm
I am suprised that that the right to bear arms was only second on the ammendments. It was how this Nation was created in the first place. How can a citizen protect themselves from lack of personal freedoms or try to oppress them be it individual or government ?
Posted by Gabor Deutsch on November 17, 2008 - 5:43pm
Havent the Native Americans Had enuff ? I say your lucky you dont get shot.
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 17, 2008 - 5:58pm
John,
You didn't follow the link. Dallas has a higher crime rate than NYC. And you castigate posters not to wander off the thread only after you've had your say.

You fight for your rights in the courts, GDD. If you think that your personal firearms will protect you from a government intent on suppressing your rights, I offer this: If they show up at your house to take your guns, they'll come aboard an armored assault vehicle, wearing SWAT gear. And the people tasked with taking your guns would be the soldiers and police who happen to be our sons, daughters, dads, moms, brothers, sisters, etc. The mythology that we need personal firearms to protect ourselves from our own government or that we could do so is illogical. "Red Dawn" was not a documentary.
Posted by John Roach on November 17, 2008 - 6:07pm
Russ,
You went off again. I never said anything about anybody coming after guns. Where did you come up with that? I never believed that was a danger, so again, stay on topic.

The issue was do Native Americans have the right to take your gun away if you go on their property without permission. Do they have treaty rights or not?

If you want to discuss the merits of government gun control, start a new thread.
Posted by Russ Stresing on November 17, 2008 - 6:15pm
John,
Try to read more closely. The bit about the government and guns was directed at GDD, not at you. Now that you've had your say on the issue, you want people to drop gun control. You seem to want to end the discussion right after you've had your say.

And have you been appointed thread monitor?
Posted by John Roach on November 17, 2008 - 7:38pm
Russ,
OK then, while I was hoping to get your stand on Indian treaty rights and you want to stay on gun control, what is your stand on gun control?
Posted by scott rytlewski on November 17, 2008 - 7:57pm
dan see what we started a simple discussion on native american, turned into a second ammenment take away there gun fight and we are no where to be found kinda funny isnt
Posted by John Roach on November 18, 2008 - 6:47am
Dan Jones,
Despite Russ wanting to change the discussion, I’d like to know, do Native Americans, living on Reservations, have to have permits for handguns like the rest of us in NY have to? If not, do you know why? Does the DEC have any rights on their lands?
Posted by Daniel Jones on November 18, 2008 - 1:47pm
Yes, Indians have to have permits, legal matters on reservations can get sticky but I do know that they have to abide by certain jurisdictions, such as gun laws and DEC restrictions.
Posted by matilda smith on November 18, 2008 - 9:00pm
i can find out the answers to those questions next week for you..