Online News. Community Views.

>> Download <<
The Batavian Mobile
Droid | iPhone

Recent comments

Site Sponsors

October 12, 2011 - 5:54pm

Alpina groundbreaking 'a success for the entire region'

By this time next year, there will be a factory in Batavia turning out 4,000 tons of yogurt on an annual basis, employing 55 people and buying milk from local dairy farmers.

The first step toward that goal was taken today with a ceremonial groundbreaking by South America-based Alpina Products at the site of its planned 40,000-square-foot facility.

“Alpina’s decision to locate in Batavia is a success for the entire region,” said Town of Batavia Supervisor Greg Post.

Alpina started marketing yogurt products aimed at U.S. consumers in the Northeast several years ago. The Batavia plant will be its first U.S.-based manufacturing facility.

Managing Director Carlos Ramirez Zavarce said Alpina was built on European tradition and now embraces American pride in expansion in New York.

Batavia, he said, was part of a list of 50 potential sites for the plant when Alpina first started planning for growth, but quickly moved to the head of the class.

Besides a strong dairy tradition and an abundant supply of milk, as well as trained workers and easy access to a market area of 125 million potential consumers, local leaders demonstrated, he said, that they would be as committed to Alpina's success as the company's executives.

"We understood that you got the message that if we were successful, you would be successful," Ramirez said. "That was very important for us. We have no doubt we're going to have success here. This is the right location, the right place."

After the groundbreaking, attendees were invited to sample Alpina's yogurt products and there was a strong sense of excitement about this initial factory opening in the long-anticipated agri-business park.

“Today’s groundbreaking of Alpina Foods’ first manufacturing facility in the United States is proof that Batavia is a great place to do business,” said Sen. Michael Ranzenhofer. “Alpina’s $15 million investment and its decision to create 50 jobs sends a clear message that other private-sector companies should consider Genesee County for their next investment.”

GCEDC CEO Steve Hyde has said previously that there are other prospects for the business park in the pipeline, but until deals are signed, he is unable to provide public details.

VIDEO: Promotional video from Alpina.

Alpina CEO Julian Jaramillo

Alpina Managing Director Carlos Ramirez Zavarce

Roger Parkhurst, who will be director of operations at the new plant

Sen. Mike Ranzenhoffer and Assemblyman Steve Hawley

GCEDC CEO Steve Hyde

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

...and 2 years from now the plant will be closed, building vacant and run down, and all of those folks out of a job...

Jack Dorf
Jack Dorf's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 5 hours ago
Joined: Apr 12 2010 - 11:32am

Your prediction based on what?

Gary Spencer
Gary Spencer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 24 min ago
Joined: Feb 18 2009 - 6:57pm

Lisa,
answer the man's questions: "Your prediction based on what?"

Howard B. Owens
Howard B. Owens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Apr 23 2008 - 3:05pm

Yes, Lisa, based on what?

Gary Spencer
Gary Spencer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 24 min ago
Joined: Feb 18 2009 - 6:57pm

maybe there is something to the recent headline:

"Consultants: Negative attitudes hurting city more than actual problems"

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

Maybe Lisa is basing her attitude on the history of Batavia. Does anyone remember Hewitt-Robbins, Sylvania, Massey-Ferguson, Montgomery Wards, W.T. Grants, Mancuso Theater and the Drive In's? Where did they go and why did they disappear? I'm not sure, but I don't think it was Obama's fault. Negative attitudes are not formed from thin air, they are cultivated from prior experiences. Saying don't get fooled again is good advice and y'all need to be on your toes. Other than that, I send best wishes for a happy, long and prosperous future in Batavia to Alpina, namaste y'all. Please validate the trust Batavia has in you as a potential employer. Please, I'm begging.

Kyle Couchman
Kyle Couchman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Dec 25 2009 - 8:54am

LOL Ya think Gary...... I think we should mark this down and 2 years from today email Lisa and ask her what she bases this opinion on again.

Nice positive outlook Lisa, two thumbs up for your psychic prediction.

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

[Video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgpzMC8X6_A]
Maybe Lisa was recalling this video from The Batavian.

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsGapy5vQ&feature=related]
Yeah, one Grandma was a Pollock and I knew her and loved her. My other Grandma was Irish and she died from influenza (the flu) before I ever knew her. Get your flu shot. I loved the dirty old town, all it needed was a steam cleaning but someone knew where the bucks were and what I thought didn't really matter, then or now.

Jack Dorf
Jack Dorf's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 5 hours ago
Joined: Apr 12 2010 - 11:32am

George, who said anything about it being Obama's fault? Most of your post give me a headache.

Howard B. Owens
Howard B. Owens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Apr 23 2008 - 3:05pm

George, there is no logical connection between what happened in the past and what will happen in the future. Further, all the companies you listed had long successful runs in Batavia. Business cycles being what they are, those businesses eventually went bankrupt, were sold and moved or the owners died and the next generation wasn't interested in business. No business lasts forever (I think there's like a 600-year-old business based in England or something, but that's hardly the rule). The vast majority of businesses eventually close or get merged or the owners decide to relocate. That's normal and hardly Batavia's fault.

The problem for Batavia hasn't been businesses closing, it's been the lack of replacement enterprises of equal contribution to the economic vitality of Genesee County.

Now, here's a business making an investment in our community and rather than celebrating it, you get some people with their negative attitudes trying to drag the whole thing down. Batavia doesn't need these kinds of negative attitudes.

Batavia/Genesee County is a great place to live, work and own a business. We need to start saying that more and jettison the past wounds and disappointments from our perspective.

Julian Jaramillo and Carlos Ramirez are really excited to be locating their first U.S. plant in Batavia. When people from another country can come here and recognize what a great place Batavia is, that should tell us something about all that we have going for us.

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

Really? You criticize me for having an opinion? I do not claim to know all, but apparently you do? You did not hesitate to jump all over me.

Howard, I understand and appreciate your input.

I do realize and know about the "positive attitude" in regards to local business, etc. However, I've always been a proud supporter. But I am a realist. And yes, Howard, I am unfortunately in your eyes, basing my opinion on past practice in this area.

I believe that new construction is a waste of time and money. I believe it builds hope where there is none. There must be ways to be resourceful with the buildings we currently have.

Read between the lines...out of country business...tax breaks here...no one else sees this county as being used in order to save money, build up a business, and then take it away and relocate where less expensive labor can be had?

Shame on the immature that feel they need to be so harsh toward me. I don't object to your opinions - I just don't agree right now. I'd be pleased to be proven wrong - for the sake of our economy and for the families whose hopes will be built up with jobs and much needed income.

Jack Dorf
Jack Dorf's picture
Offline
Last seen: 6 days 5 hours ago
Joined: Apr 12 2010 - 11:32am

Bingo Howard.

Dave Olsen
Dave Olsen's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 day 18 hours ago
Joined: Oct 12 2008 - 11:48am

Well anyways, welcome to Batavia, Alpina. Best wishes for success.

Jeremiah Pedro
Jeremiah Pedro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Feb 17 2010 - 9:27am

Alpina is a good start. Now we just need to attract more agricultural based businesses to Genesee County. If we can get a group of businesses that will feed off of each other then the chances of them remaining in the area will increase greatly. Where is Alpina's sources of supply for their end product? Will they be using local dairies?

Kyle Couchman
Kyle Couchman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Dec 25 2009 - 8:54am

Sorry Lisa thats pretty much a cop out..... beliefs are not facts even if you treat them as such, you claim you are a proud supportter yet your comment shows otherwise.

Building a new building instead of using whats here? Come on and be sensible. A sure way to fail is to try to fit something into a building thats not designed for it.

However new construction is money spent locally for materials systems and people to install inspect and approve. Not to mentions people to build and fufill, contributions to local sales and sales tax et. al

So hurt feeling aside the comment did warrant a bit of comment on it's negativity, if that upsets you then maybe you should think about how you felt posting this.

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

Kyle - We are all entitled to our opinions. I was not hurt, I was angered at the closed minds responding to my post. Again, I would love nothing more than to be wrong in my projection.

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

"George, who said anything about it being Obama's fault? Most of your post give me a headache."
Mission accomplished.

Howard B. Owens
Howard B. Owens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Apr 23 2008 - 3:05pm

Thought I left a comment along these lines earlier, but it's not here ...

Lisa, first nobody criticized you. Somebody criticizing your opinion is NOT the same as criticizing you. You were not attacked, you were not belittled, you were not personally fouled in any way.

Nobody was harsh toward you. Being harsh toward your opinion is not being harsh toward you.

Nobody jumped all over you.

You put an opinion there that flies in the face of logic and facts, and I and others reacted to that opinion, not to you.

Why try to turn it into something personal?

A person disagreeing with you is not evidence of immaturity or closed minds (if any comments here violate our rules against personal attacks, that would be it). A person disagreeing with you is simply a person disagreeing with you.

Also, you seemed to miss the fact that Batavia was among 50 sites originally on Alpina's site selection list. I can pretty much guarantee you that every single one of those sites offered tax abatement and other financial assistance to try and woo Alpina. That's the way modern economic development is done. Every jurisdiction does it. Alpina didn't come to Batavia just because of tax breaks and no prudent CEO is going to invest $15 million in a project with the idea of pulling out once the tax incentives dry up. That would be fiscally irresponsible. A business only makes that kind of investment if they believe in a long horizon of returns on the investment.

If Alpina ever closes here it will be only because of failed strategy or unexpected turns in the economy or the market for their products, not because the PILOT expired (which will take 10 years, not two or three).

You're welcome to your opinion, but if you base it on fantasy rather fact, you can expect to be challenged. That's no slam on you, it's just the way debate works.

I do have to say -- you realize, don't you, that The Batavian is potentially read all over the world, so when you start running down our community in comments, you're sending a message to some of the very investors who might be thinking of bringing a business here. Such unfounded negative comments need to be answered.

Kyle Couchman
Kyle Couchman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Dec 25 2009 - 8:54am

Closed minds.....looking back on the responses to your first post I fail to see closed minded responses, just responses to a close minded comment.

Pot kettle black?

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

Howard, where is your CSW? A degree in psychology? My reference to closed minded was just that it didn't appear to me that I was acknowledged for having the right to my own opinion. Whether we agree or not is not an issue for me. It's okay to agree to disagree. Kyle, take your pot kettle black and pack it.

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

To all that have participated in this exchange - again, I respect your right to have an opinion. This is is no way a personal shot. An exchange of this sort (email, postings, etc.) is left too wide open to interpretation vs. an in-person discussion.This subject is closed for me now. Anxious to see the future results, and hoping for the best. Thanks.

Kyle Couchman
Kyle Couchman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Dec 25 2009 - 8:54am

Appears I hit a nerve with Lisa however your own words and attitude show that while you demand to have your opinion heard, your ability to allow others that same right when they arent of your said opinion seems limited and you begin to cry unfair. Thats ok people have seen both sides here and can see whats reasonable and whats not.

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

Kyle, I believe that we are saying the same thing about one another. You've hit nothing. I have no feeling about you one way or another. What's reasonable and what's not is a perception. I don't think there are rights or wrongs here. If I'm not making myself clear, let's get together and talk about this.

Gary Spencer
Gary Spencer's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 days 24 min ago
Joined: Feb 18 2009 - 6:57pm

Lisa,
I am sorry if I offended you in any way, it was not a personal attack, I was simply seeking more information regarding your original post.
I hope that any comments I have made will not be held against me and that your opinion of me has not changed.
Sincerely,
Gary

Lisa Falkowski
Lisa Falkowski's picture
Offline
Last seen: 10 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Jun 23 2009 - 10:29am

Thanks, Gary. I feel that I do the same and appreciate you making mention of this. It's all good. I don't have an opinion of you persay, except that again, I appreciate you just acknowledging the fact that we may differ.

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

[video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYLsyNBnE5M]
Jack, This kind of gives me a headache too, but it's the thought that counts.

Mark Potwora
Mark Potwora's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: May 14 2008 - 6:42pm

Lisa i agree with your point of view on this..I am glad to see business come here and create 50 jobs..i don't think that they will be great paying jobs but jobs none the less..It amazes me the amount of tax break and grants they will give out just to create 50 jobs..To me that is what the liberals call corporate welfare..All this does is reaffirm that our tax structure must be out of whack if this is how you have to conduct business in this county ....
I don't remember all this hoopla over WalMart ,Target ,Home Depot and Lowes building here in Batavia..After all ,the jobs and the yogurt plant will probably pay are the same..Wal Mart alone has created more than 50 jobs..

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

"George, there is no logical connection between what happened in the past and what will happen in the future."
I know that Howard. Most times my comments are stream of consciousness ramblings. Don't think for a moment that I don't root for Batavia 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, unless you like being wrong. And I know you don't.

C. M. Barons
C. M. Barons's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 days 43 min ago
Joined: Jul 29 2008 - 11:56pm

A couple more shovels and few less chairs, they might have got the footer in.

Howard B. Owens
Howard B. Owens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Apr 23 2008 - 3:05pm

Mark, please tell us the details of what you believe the tax breaks are (yes, I know what they are, I'm challenging you to articulate them). I'd like you to tell us what is good and bad about the specifics.

Also, based on what evidence -- please provide facts -- do you base your opinion on that they won't be good paying jobs? What salary surveys have you done?

Mark Potwora
Mark Potwora's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: May 14 2008 - 6:42pm

Howard...These are some of the tax breaks...Alpina will receive an extensive package of incentives from state and local agencies, ranging from benefits under the state’s Excelsior Jobs Program, along with $750,000 from a grant program operated by the state Office of Community Renewal. National Fuel Gas Co. and National Grid also have agreed to help pay to extend utility lines to the new plant. The project also will receive property, sales and mortgage tax breaks through the Genesee County Economic Development Center and other aid from the Town of Batavia..To me this seems like alot for 50 jobs...The pay rate for food processing jobs ave $11.30 an hour..http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes513093.htm.....This is from the Bureau of Labor
Home Depot and Lowes pay these same kind of wages.....
To give tax breaks to one group you have to make it up some where..Who pays..It all just another form of welfare...Dept of Agriculture i believe just gave money for the infrastructure in the ag park ..This is all for 50 jobs....I am glad that 50 people will get a job out of this..But if this company it so successful why do they need a tax break.........Was Alpina not going to expand in to the US unless some one gave them money to do so........To me this just confirms the fact that taxes must be too high...So in the end how much will those 50 jobs cost to create...

Howard B. Owens
Howard B. Owens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Apr 23 2008 - 3:05pm

Mark, how much of that $750K is the PILOT amount?

I'll defend PILOT to the hilt. It's good for business and it's good for taxpayers. And that was the real issue I was looking to pin you down on.

As for some of the other breaks, they're debatable.

But here's the thing, you say that needs to be addressed ... "Was Alpina not going to expand in to the US unless some one gave them money to do "

The question isn't whether Alpina was going to expand in the US. The question was where. Batavia had to compete against 49 other locations to win this lottery.

Would you rather Batavia not compete on equal footing with those 49 other jurisdictions? All of those other jurisdictions offered the same or similar tax incentives and grants.

Would it be better for Batavia not have tried to match those offers and have the jobs go elsewhere?

It's fine to say businesses shouldn't get grants from the state -- there's a lawsuit going forward in New York on this topic now -- but when it comes down to my home vs. Worchester County (for example) or some place in Pennsylvania, I'm picking Batavia, and until all other agencies forsake offering these kinds of incentives to businesses -- all across the country -- then I'll tolerate the GCEDC or anybody else paving the way for companies like Alpina to come to Batavia.

The fact of the matter, Mark, I'm strongly against multinational corporations such as Alpina. I don't believe in free trade as we presently know it. I believe the Sherman Anti-Trust Act should be more vigorously enforced. I simply thing big corporations are as much a danger to individual freedom as big government. But for me, Batavia comes first. My localist politics trumps any libertarian or conservative impulses. Batavia (and by that I include all of Genesee County) comes first.

I'm happy Alpina is coming here and I'm firmly convinced with Alpina in the park, other companies will see more clearly all that Batavia has much to offer ag product companies and others will wish to locate in that park.

As for wages, as with any such facility, it will offer a range of jobs.

If your figure about hourly wages is correct, surely those are the wages O-AT-KA pays, and nobody ever complains about them being in Batavia. The potential of the ag-park is to create O-AT-KA five or six times over once its built out.

Is that such a bad thing?

Finally, I can much better respect your opinion when you do provide information to support your conclusions, even if I might still disagree. I'm against broad brush negativity. I think it hurts our community.

George Richardson
George Richardson's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 8 months ago
Joined: Dec 10 2008 - 9:33am

Howard, unlike Congress, nobody who posts here wants Batavia to fail. I would bet my life on that. Didn't you ever make fun of a brother or sister? Did that mean you didn't love them anymore? Yeah, right dude. Is that making your head hurt Jack? I sure hope not because me and Jesus and maybe even Howard, love you.

Mark Potwora
Mark Potwora's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: May 14 2008 - 6:42pm

PILOT is just a made up number..How do they come up with it..who decides...Does it represent the total tax assessment on the property....We need to expand tax base ..We assess tax in the city county and school on the value of the property...They call it property tax for a reason...When one group get a special tax break on there property who makes up the difference...To me this is a form of taxation with representation...Because their tax break will cause me to pay more in my taxes to make what they aren't paying..How can a homeowner get a PILOT plan..So that they can pay less then what they should..Also should we just go along with what the city and county does just to go along and not be negative.......I just wanted to come to Lisa's defense ..I don't think she was being negative..Sounds like she seen this before..What i really found ironic was there seemed to be more than 50 people watching the shovel ceremony......To me this whole thing is Big Government at work...Which you oppose...

Howard B. Owens
Howard B. Owens's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Apr 23 2008 - 3:05pm

How is PILOT a made up number?

"When one group get a special tax break on there property who makes up the difference ... Because their tax break will cause me to pay more in my taxes to make what they aren't paying"

There is no difference to make up. Your taxes don't go up because of a PILOT.

Without a PILOT, there's a chance a project never gets built. If it never gets built, your tax rate doesn't change.

If it does get built, the property owner is still paying taxes on the base value of the property, so your tax rate doesn't change.

A PILOT has zero impact on what you pay in taxes, except that maybe lower taxes in the future.

PILOTs issued over the past 10 years have increased tax revenue for Genesee County's taxing jurisdictions by $4 million.

We all know how much local governments are hurting for revenue. Would you rather not have that $4 million and then have your taxes go up even more?

You say we need to expand the tax base. That is EXACTLY what a PILOT does. That's it's primary and most important function.

PILOTs are one of the most ingenious devices ever created by government -- they're a win for businesses, a win for economic development, a win local governments and a win for taxpayers. There is absolutely no downside for anybody regarding PILOTs.

John Roach
John Roach's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 3 hours ago
Joined: May 29 2008 - 5:22am

Howard,
I am against these breaks also, all of them. But, you are right, we have to compete for business. Like it or not, other areas around here like Orleans and Wyoming Counties are going after the same businesses. I think some of the resentment against breaks around here is because of the way GCEDC is run. Giving a break to a business to move from one area of the County to another and then say the jobs that moved are new jobs, gives some a sour taste.

Jeremiah Pedro
Jeremiah Pedro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Feb 17 2010 - 9:27am

Kyle, do you know for a fact that local contractors are going to be building the new structure? What about the building material, do you know that it is coming from a local source of supply in Genesee County? What about technicians to install and service the computer equipment? Will a local computer store be awarded the service contract for alpina? I don't know that is why I'm asking you since you post suggests that you have knowledge of alpina's contracts for construction and what not.

Kyle Couchman
Kyle Couchman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Dec 25 2009 - 8:54am

Do you know for a fact that it wont Pedro? 90% of the construction projects I have seen go up around here and Ithaca, especially when the business is from out of the area.... use local contracts and supplies , as it drives up costs to ship them from non local sources. Now because jobs like this are usually Bid out to such firms there is a chance it might not be local. However that would be up to the local contractor desire to have such work.

I'm sure only Alpina and a few people in GCEDC know the true facts. Doesn't make my speculation any more valid than any of the others who are siding on the negative aspect of this.

Jeremiah Pedro
Jeremiah Pedro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Feb 17 2010 - 9:27am

Go on and re-read my comment Kyle. I specifically say that I do NOT know for a fact.

Kyle Couchman
Kyle Couchman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 days 2 hours ago
Joined: Dec 25 2009 - 8:54am

Not necessary to re-read Pedro I am not required to only post facts or defend them as such being a member of this site I have a much voice and credibility as you to as I bring a lifetime of experience and knowledge the same as you do.

If you want to discredit or place doubts then it SEEMS that your definately of that crowd that is negative and tears down any positive mention or outlook. Besides you seem to focus on only part of my statement, as pointed out by you it's possible that materials and contractors might come from out of town, however if they do they still will spend locally, the inspectors to approve the site, and wiring and other things that make a building legal ie, construction codes, certificate of occupancy, etc will be local. The workers and eventually the people working there will have money to spend in grocery stores, gas stations, banks, homes (if they arent residents already), and so on so whatever your point was to poke at my having knowledge of how hey are going to build, they still bring money to the region. A positive you can't throw much doubt on.

So feel free to ask whatever questions or spin my statements any way you wish as I will defend them and rationally point to this article about Batavia's negative attitude and the glaring examples people themselves provide....as it applies to the conversation that is. :)

On a side note.... Lisa I do understand you I am in this instance just firmly on the otherside of this argument from you. Please if you really step back and look at your first statement you have to admit it seemed very off the cuff, negative no matter what your intent, my passions in our little arguements in this forum rarely go to personal feeling (except a few glaring instances) But as Howard can tell you I have been warned on a few occasions as I will not hold back or not defend my statements or opinions, and how can my mind ever be changed if we just state our opinions and not discuss them because it would be courteous to do so. I have had my views changed not only by my own but others opinions and viewpoints in here, bcause they couls see things from another viewpoint and could apply life exp that I havent had to back up the what and why.
So there are no hard feelings at all :)

Jeremiah Pedro
Jeremiah Pedro's picture
Offline
Last seen: 1 year 4 months ago
Joined: Feb 17 2010 - 9:27am

well Couchman, my initial comment was indeed a question. Not a spin or poke at you. Thick skin my friend. Your retort seems to say other wise. I never said all the nonsense you just espoused in your current response.

On a side note recent events seem to confirm Lisa's so called negative comment.

Post new comment

Log in or register to post comments

Calendar

S M T W T F S
 
 
 
1
 
2
 
3
 
4
 
5
 
6
 
7
 
8
 
9
 
10
 
11
 
12
 
13
 
14
 
15
 
16
 
17
 
18
 
19
 
20
 
21
 
22
 
23
 
24
 
25
 
26
 
27
 
28
 
29
 
30
 
31
 
 

Copyright © 2008-2014 The Batavian. Some Rights Reserved. Privacy Policy | Terms of Service
Original content available for non-commercial use under a Creative Commons license.
Contact: Howard Owens, publisher (howard (at) the batavian dot com); (585) 250-4118

blue button