The Dow Jones just opened down at 13,073....but that is MUCH better than 8500 and change at the end of 2008
Personally, I was sitting on a bunch of empty real estate in 2008.....I now have only 1 vacancy, and folks are really digging my new porcelain products in my other business.
I am opitmistic that the new yogurt plants in this area will supply MUCH better wages than all the low paying retail jobs at the other end of town. Maybe in a few years, when folks are employed again, they will be able to buy their own houses in town (if the banks STOP BEING STINGY) and so many won't be landlord owned. That would be a GOOD thing!
Here is an article (i can't find the one i read a few days ago) about a shortage of auto mechanics in this country. There are going to be a LOT of these jobs avail as boomers retire:
Julie, As I was reading your post, the quarterly manufacturing numbers came out. (The worst showing in three years) The Market dropped 100 points in the time I read it also.
My point is that it is perspective.
1) Is the economy slowly improving? In some market areas yes, in others no, but in all much slower recovery than following any recession in over 100 years.
2) Is Western New York's economy improving? Yes it is indeed but that is largely because of local initiatives NOT the Federal Government
3) Will there be car mechanic jobs available in the near future? Yes, indeed there will be, but will those added jobs be enough to compensate for a growing population? The article you site doesn't address that at all.
Finally, Am I happy about the econmic development in our region? You betta I am, as we all should be.
Yes, your post was helpful, because there is perspective that needs to be reviewed on both sides of the argument.
[P.S. Your spelling is much, much better mine and many on here, it's your perspective that counts and is very much welcome.]
To make the "better off as a country" argument in terms of real indicators would be to wander into the delusional. I am waiting to see the two major themes over the next three days, #1 It's still George Bush's fault; #2 somehow Barack Obama was not President for the last 4 years. To lay out a campaign in terms of what path will you choose as a country would be to either admit that we were on the wrong path the last 4 years, or advocate staying to the same path. Both are illogical in terms of seeking re-election. The only feasible request for Obama to make is not a second term, but a second chance.
You're right Jeff blaming Bush for the mess he and Cheney left is delusional. The choice is simple if the question is better off than it was four years ago when the country was on the brink of another Great Depression, banks failing, the auto industry near bankrupt,real estate values plunging, unemployment moving up at historic rates, and Osama Bin Laden was still sending out videos from his hideout in Pakistan, two unfunded wars still going on....in the last forty months, another Great Depression was avoided, banks were saved, the auto industry saved and thriving, unemployment steadily coming down with jobs added nearly every month, real estate values stabilized, Osama is dead and the American Auto industry is alive, the last troops in Iraq have been pulled out, and the final pullout in Afghanistan is on schedule.....this has all been accomplished in spite of an opposition party that has made it's number one priority keeping President Obama from a second term blocking, jobs bill after jobs bill, abortion bill after abortion bill, putting their party priorities above the country's. So far all we hear from Romney/Ryan is the desire to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent with increased reductions for corporations and the wealthiest people in the nation.
Ed,
The Iraq pull out the was the result of Bush and the treaty with Iraq. Obama made every effort to ignore that treaty and get them to let us stay, but Iraq would not agree with the status of forces agreement we wanted. If Obama had his way, we would still have troops in Iraq. And remember, Obama was against the surge that allowed the withdrawal.
And how is Afghanistan going for you? We have more US troops being killed by our allies than by the enemy. In fact we just had to stop training some of them so they don't shoot us. The suicide rate for US troops is higher this year than ever. And Obama just agreed to keep us committed to the place after the official withdrawal.
He got OBL, despite the advice of Joe Biden not to try. He gets an A+ for that.
Yep, GM is around, and we, the taxpayer own it. We paid more per share than the company is worth. We saved Chrysler, for the 2nd time, so that Fiat, an Italian company can own it.
The fact that the final pullout in Afghanistan is on schedule is primarily why more US boys are dying. The Taliban leadership is reading the same schedule
The point is the troops are out of Iraq despite calls from the three amigos McCain, Lieberman, and Graham to stay, Osama Bin Laden is dead, the banks were saved, Afghanistan is winding down and will accelerate going forward and while the U.S. Govt. still owns a sizable part of GM, Chrysler has paid off its debt and FIAT has a 20% stake not total ownership, a move that saved the industry and jobs.
The increased suicide rate for troop the military is a disgrace and the result of to many deployments over the last ten years, one war Iraq, that was started based on a foundation of lies and the other, Afghanistan, left fallow for several years to prosecute the one in Iraq leaving Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan instead of concentrating on the killing him and wiping out his confederates. Obama said what he meant and meant what he said regarding both wars ending the one and starting the process of ending the other.
This is an excellent discussion on the subject at hand, a bit long, but worth the read when you have time. Cusack was an Obamaite who has become quite dissatisfied. Personally, I never trusted him form the start of his notoriety, too slick and polished.
To Bud: Don't you agree that $11 an hour at a yogurt factory (or any factory) with some benefits is better than minimum wage at a retail store?
To Mark: Yes, the Dow was down today. Every day there is a 50% chance of it going up and a 50% chance of it going down. We are supposed to look at long term, and as of right now, the Dow closed at 13,035.94 which is still WAY above the horrible 8500 number from 4 years ago.
RE wars: Personally, I would rather do drone attacks so that our guys and gals in the service don't get hurt. I LOVE the fact that we can bomb the crap out of these people with an RC plane with a smart bomb or two :)... I don't know if it is cheaper, but I think it is safe to assume that it is cheaper since we don't have to pay for medical and mental health care for traumatized soldiers (?)
My hope is that these people in government learn how to (gasp) COMPROMISE and do what is right for the American people instead of letting party politics run their lives.
Don't blame me, I rooted for Jon Huntsman in the primaries.
The federal debt is close to $16TRILLION..I just heard it on the radio. Hmm...at the end of 2008 our debt was about $9trillion. The debt has gone up in excess of $7trillion in 4 years and no matter whose fault it is, we're not better off. Simple math spells it out.
" So far all we hear from Romney/Ryan is the desire to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent with increased reductions for corporations and the wealthiest people in the nation"
John, candidate Obama opposed the war, candidate Obama promised to bring the troops home ASAP during his first term if elected, President Obama brought all of the troops home during his first term as promised over the objections of the three amigos McCain, Lieberman, and Graham. Bush signed onto a withdrawal agreement that proposed leaving troops as advisers, the Iraqi leaders dug in and refused to agree to a "Status of Forces Agreement" that foreclosed on the proposed bases to remain. The salient point is President Obama promised to bring the troops home in his first term and he did just that.
Peter, I agree 100% with you, you're absolutely correct so far all we hear from Romney/Ryan is the desire to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent with increased reductions for corporations and the wealthiest people in the nation. I may be green that's due to my Irish heritage and love of the environment, but envy just isn't in my nature.
Ed, John is right on the troop withdrawl from Iraq. Obama did want to keep us there. I was part of the last USAF Security Forces Unit there and prior to our withdrawl we were notified that we may have to extend our tour to allow replacements. The good news was the Iraqi Government wanted us out. Frank, Bush having a clue was not the issue. The issue was letting Saddam play games and delay the UN Inspectors. If, he did not have WMDs what did he gain by not letting them in without delay? If he did not have WMDs he could make the US look like fools. Yes, he did eventually but, look at the length of the delay. If Saddam had no WMDs, how was two convoys hit by chemical IEDs during the war? Saddam is not stupid, he even buried sixty (60) of his fighters which were fully fueled and armed to avoid Ally Bombings. Saddam's delay allowed two things in his favor. One was to remove their WMDs and store them in neighboring countries. This led to advantage number two, making the US look like war mongers and Anti-Muslim.
Ed I do not see how government control of business is a good idea for us? Banks were saved and now we pay higher interest on bank cards because of that. Obama's Health Care Reform uses tax dollars to support it. We are having to borrow trillions of dollars from China to support Obama's reforms.
John, the last time I checked, there is still no actual proof of WMD,s in Iraq, now, or then.
If you consider an IED a WMD, you may have a point.
Saddam didn't make us look like war mongers, Bush proved we were.
Peter, Obama has already answered your questions recently. When asked how he graded himself as President. His answer was incomplete. Yeah, since he is figuring that he will be elected for another four years, he as a chance to bring his grade from an F to an A. Second, he is letting his wife do the speaking at the DNC. The main topic will be how the dreaded republicans are taking away women's rights.
Oh, I love how politicians take credit for Bin Laden’s death, like they put their life on the line. That is for all politicians. Obama is self-absorbed on how great he thinks he is.
Really Frank, an IED is not a weapon of mass destruction! However, the chemical agent within are classified as such. Well you have the right to your opinion as do I. I am not a Bush fan by any means but, Saddam gets credit for the war monger in my eyes.
As for proof about WMDs, I feel that they may not have had a vast quantity of them. I do believe they did possess them since; some were used as I stated. Chemical Agents Frank not the IED itself. OPSEC/COMSEC is only as strong as it's people. I believe Saddam had a good grasp on both.
Frank, was the Nuclear Development Program in Iraq Dismantled before the war? Yes bit we didn't know that because of the vibrato the Saddam practiced.
'
But there was evidence of WMD's just not the huge stockpiles we thought. And yes WE thought, not just GW but Clinton as well. I am not making an arguement for justifiying the war, but some things need to be brought to the light of day.
FACT: In June of 2006 the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, released portions of a declassified report which stated unequivocally that "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."
FACT: In a January 2008 report on 60 minutes, top CIA operative George Piro revealed that Saddam Hussein had phased out his biological weapons program since the 90s but was willing to go to war with the U.S., because he needed to continue the illusion that he had an active WMD program, as a hedge against his arch enemy, Iran. He apparently had no idea that the U.S. was planning such an exhaustive offensive, or he would’ve reconsidered that strategy
FACT: Saddam was planning on restarting his program on every level (nuclear and biological), approximately one year after U.N. sanctions were lifted. This explains why he was actively approaching North Africa for the procurement of yellow cake. This also explains why 550 metric tons of the stuff was removed from Iraq in 2008 courtesy of the United States of America.
Mark, you know that won't manner. People are so, anti-Bush and republican that they will state it is all fabrication. (Sarcasm) Hey Mark, if you have not already read the "Black Banner" by Ali Stoufan.
It's all of the Republicans fault! No, it's the Democrats. No, the Republicans! No, Democrats!
That's all I got out of this discussions.
It's both the Republicans and the Democrats fault.
Both parties, leaders from both parties, more interested in their own aggrandizement than peace and prosperity (which when you boil it down is the only job of the federal government).
We will have neither peace nor prosperity so long as voters keep supporting the two parties of war and spending.
First John I thank you for your service and you are back home and able to debate these questions with a weary old veteran of another war. I said Obama brought all of the troops out of Irag. I don't know why Steve is still in Afghanistan, what I do know is that President Obama has said he would have all of the troops out by 2013 and Mitt Romney has stated time and again that he would keep our troops there until they are finished with the mission and the generals tell him it's time to withdraw the troops. Generals can always find reasons to stay and command the troops in the field and give rosy assessments of how with a little more time and few more troops they will prevail. History has shown that listening to the generals when there is no reason to stay only results in more casualties. I also know that in any deployment that I was associated with there is always confusion at the tail end and what was the order of the day Monday morning is often different at noon and changed again before dinner, it's the nature of the beast. I hope and pray that all of the troops are out of Afghanistan sooner rather than later, I still have more than a few friends with sons and daughters who I care about still there as well as a number of friends from the U.K., and Canada who have loved ones still there. I believe that President Obama will have them out of there as promised and trust that he is good for his word on this based on his past performance.
I agree with you Howard that it is both parties fault.
The economic melt down was NOT the fault solely of George Bush.
It was not the fault of the Dems either
I have said this before and will stick by it, it was Politicans all around who prioritized spending around relection efforts over decades that lead to that crisis. Parties really had nothing to do with it, they were merely the vessels for political greed on both sides.
I am so with you, Howard. These debates are a broken record. BLAH BLAH BLAH Obama, BLAH BLAH BLAH Bush...Listen, Bush ruined this country. He took a nation in shock and placed us in two costly wars, once for retaliation, the other for oil. He spent trillions in debt, put all of his buddies in power and made sure their companies made billions.
Obama did what his ideals dictate him to, he tried to spend us out of a depression. Yes, folks it was a depression, and did it work? Kind of. Regardless it has cost us and our children a debt that we can't possibly recoup right now.
Are we better than four years ago? I guess that depends on what industry and part of the nation you're in.
The bottom line is we can't afford either or your bloated parties anymore.
Deaths of US soldiers have doubled in Afghanistan since Obama took office. DOUBLED. And yet No Cindy Sheehan camped out on Obamas lawn, no Code Pink or Move On.org to be heard. We heard ad nauseum during the last campaign about getting out of both wars. We left Iraq under the Bush treaty, remain in Afghanistan with record death toll and not one mention of holding Obama accountable for those lives. Amazing how US military deaths somehow become palatable and politically irrelevant under a different Administration. Osama Bin Laden is dead because our military did it's job. No one can point to a strategy that Obama employed that led to his killing. AGAIN, the auto industry was not saved, GM and Chrysler were given taxpayer handouts and as a result GM is heading once again toward a second bankruptcy if changes are not made, the Volt is quickly becoming the next Edsel and Chrysler in now owned by the Italians, I hardly call that thriving.
Jeff, your assertion that the deaths of any of our troops or the NATO troops in Afghanistan have have become more palatable and politically irrelevant because of a change in any Administration, Democrat or Republican is offensive. Such a remark has no place in a civil debate on the issue of putting the young men and women who serve in the military into harms way, as a citizen it is truly disturbing to think that anyone would express such utter contempt for duly elected officials.
Ed, spare me the civil debate lecture and the offensive post line. You beat the anti war drum as loud as anybody but then turn around and give Obama credit for "success" in Afghanistan ( post#6) when soldiers have died at twice, sometimes three times the rate they did under Bush. Quite frankly, it is your hypocrisy and that of all the others who are now silent on continuing war deaths that dishonor to the troops who are currently risking their lives.
Ed along with John's comment I'd like to say in a truly civil debate, truth no matter how ugly or distasteful it is still discussed. The truly disturbing part is in fact what John has pointed out the fact that with the casulties and problems we have seen in Afganistan which make what we were dealing with in Iraq pale in comparison yet those that were shouting the loudest about the wars at the Bush admin are now strangely silent. Thats a fact, a truth not anything else. So stop dodging the "offesnive assertion" and either answer or not. The indignation and outrage really doesnt cut it as a response.
Sorry Ed, your comment did not state Iraq. Obama was trying to extend our stay in Iraq. That came with our OPS briefing. He took us out because, he had no choice to since, the Iraqi Government denied his request. Which I am glad they did. Ed, like you I feel that we need to stop Policing the World. We all know the Middle East hates us and we are viewed as mercenaries so, they do not lose their own souls in battle.
Afghanistan is a lost cause and a catch 22. If, we leave the Taliban will use that to help recuit more terrorist to bring another 911 on our door step. If, we stay it will take in my eyes, at least three generations of American Soldiers to win the minds of the Afghanis. Not to mention three more generations of dead American Soldiers. People think if, we leave them alone they will not bother us, that is wrongful thinking. They do not think like you and I. Read that book I suggested to Mark called, "Black Banner." It is written by an FBI Agent from a Muslim Country.
Afghanistan has many villages/clans who do not even know they are part of a country or even have an government. I just read a book by a Scottish Journalist who walked across Afghanistan before and during the war. His name escapes my mind but, it was a great book. Gives a lot of insight on how they view themselves and the world.
I agree with you to a point Phil. However, do we really want Iran to be a nuclear power? Islam preaches peaces but, lets not forget it calls for war. If, we go after Iran we should use special ops and assist the Israelis in shutting down there program. Surgical strikes rather than a full ground assault. Like I stated, islam nations do not think like the majority of the world.
Leaving them alone will make them leave us alone? No, that will not be the case. Look at the past couple decades with attacks against the US such as, Khobar Towers, Twin Towers (93), USS Cole etc... We did not go to war after these attacks and the terrorist felt we were weak and unwilling to fight. They kept striking such as our esbassy in Africa, Indonesia etc...
I agree with you to a point Phil. However, do we really want Iran to be a nuclear power? Islam preaches peaces but, lets not forget it calls for war. If, we go after Iran we should use special ops and assist the Israelis in shutting down there program. Surgical strikes rather than a full ground assault. Like I stated, islam nations do not think like the majority of the world.
Leaving them alone will make them leave us alone? No, that will not be the case. Look at the past couple decades with attacks against the US such as, Khobar Towers, Twin Towers (93), USS Cole etc... We did not go to war after these attacks and the terrorist felt we were weak and unwilling to fight. They kept striking such as our esbassy in Africa, Indonesia etc...
That is okay Howard. I just agree with you on the part that both democrats and republicans own blame in this country's collapse. Since, our government has forgotten that they work for us and not themselves. They become self serving and worry about their own needs over the peoples' needs.
As far as the discussion being about democrats versus republicans, I believe the above is rather a segment of the topic at hand "Are we better off than four years ago? Ed, brought up the issue about how Obama brought home our troops when in reality he really did not. As I mention my unit 506 ESFS was told that we might be extended until we get replacements because, Obama wanted to extend our stay in Iraq.
"However, do we really want Iran to be a nuclear power?" Do I want Russia, the UK, France, China, or the US to have them either? NO. You know, it always amazes me that people talk about the craziness of Islam, when we have plenty of psychos bombing our own buildings, clubs where they wear hoods, burn churches and kill blacks, people shooting up Theaters, and innocent kids at Pathmark, and so on.
What got us here? Needless war, and us telling the rest of the world how to live. We spent $25 Billion last year on foreign aid to help nations, yet we spent $158 Billion on two senseless wars. Seriously?
Why would I listen to that tired thinking anymore?
Phil, Russia, China, France, United Kingdom and the US all understand the devastation and the misery of nuclear warfare. They all have a common view on life. Not to mention they all have respect for this power. Iran and the rest of the Islam world do not share that same point or common view.
Really comparing the KKK and a few psycho domestic terrorist bombings to a nuclear denotation. I will agree that we have issues with domestic terrorist but, that would hardly compare to a nuclear strike. Not only will it kill millions but, affect the world environmentally. Your problem along with some other people believe that the rest of this world sees things as we do. That is just not the case. No I do not want war. I am tired of deployments but, if I have to do it to protect my countrymen and myself, I will. Like Ed I am weary from serving in foreign wars. Until the world settles their social, reglious, cultural, etc... differences there will never be true peace. Oh, if it does happen it is the end for us here.
Oh I see your logic, John. Because they understand the devastation, (they/we're) deserving? What a crock.
So what is your answer? Send over special ops, kill a bunch of people, steal tech and presto it's done? Do you know what your problem is, John? You think that the these answers are so simple. You think that if we keep killing people that we'll be safe. That these terrorist will not keep coming, and growing by those actions.
And I was not comparing them to a nuclear bomb. I though I made it clear, but I'll break it down, We have nutcases in this country, just like Islam. Nut jobs are a part of every society. Should we send special forces in our neighborhoods to start killing those who talk crazy here?
No Phil, I am not saying they or we are deserving. I am saying that the chance of Russia, China, France, UK and the US of using a nuclear device is slim to none. Iran would use it and stated they will use it.
Special Ops kill a bunch of people? First what do you classify a bunch as? 1-12;13-36; 37-100; 100-1000; 1001-10000; 10001-100000, etc... Second of all if it means taking out the few with the knowledge to create such a device and the equipment and materials needed to make such device. Then yes since, killing a few to save millions is justified. Sad to say but, the truth in this matter. Should we have ignored Germany opression on Europe? Should we have turned a blind eye to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?
Phil when you compare Iran's desire for nuclear power to that of KKK and domestic terrorism bombings, then yes you are comparing them. I agree we have nut cases but, the threat of Iran developing nuclear weapons is far more an threat to not just the US security but, other nations of the world as well.
BTW, I do not believe there is such a thing as simple solutions Phil. These are difficult decisions which you have the weight the impact of the bad versus the impact of the good. If we do not observe this then we become no different than the bad side of humanity.
John W.,
The idea that an Islamic country should not have the bomb is a bit moot. Pakistan has had one for awhile and has not used it, even against their worst enemy-India.
Let us all not forget, the Nuclear Genie left the Bottle in 1945, it is never going back in.
There will most liklely never be a defense system that can not at some point be circumvented or overwhelmed and
Most important, we did not pursue Nuclear Weapons out of greed and/or imperial quest, we developed because the Germans were very close to developing one in WWII.
We didn't use the two Bombs in World War II so that we could be the big kids on the Block, we did used them because in every scenario we could calculate ending world war II by convetional means would have cost an estimated 3 million additional lives, 1 million of them American.
The escalation began immediately after the war when the Soviets developed their own and the arms race began, perhaps we could have handled that differently in the late 40's and 50's perhaps not but we will never know.
One thing is fact. it was the realization that if either side struck first, the other would reap equal or greater destruction that prevented the cold war turning into a World War III, the cuban missle crisis didn't end because JFK was agreat negotiator, it was because Kruchev realized that JFK would actually use nukes if the Soviets did, and would infact strike Cuba to remove the soviet Missles.
The fact is that we will not in our lifetime see a nuke free world as sad as that may be, but the sad fact is also that it will not be the US, Russia, France, The UK, India or China that will first use one, and the consequences for ignoring that could be world changing proportions.
And so does North Korea. What you forget is that Iran has admit that they will use them against Israel. What you forget is that India has them pointed back at Pakistan. Not to mention India would not need as many to wipe out Pakistan either.
Lets simplify things a little more. All of the current nuclear powers while not always reasonable, are aware of the consequences of their use. However Iran and others becoming nuclear powers, and having members of their society and govts of a jhiadist frame of mind. Is that really a comforting thought? I mean some of these people are willing to strap on vests and blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces just to make a political statement. Do we want them having even an iota of access to nukes or even atomic type munitions of anykind?
Absolutely Right Mark. Our scientist shared nuclear knowledge with Russia after WWII because, of other benefits such as its ability to be used as a power source as we have today. I am not against Iran wanting it for that but, I am against them having Nuclear Weapons.
One can make a bomb with Drano too (I watched McGuyver), so what? Look, I'm tired of sending young kids to die. You Served, Ed Served, Kyle Served and I served. How many more have to keep dying for this?
It's and endless cycle with no end in sight. I'm done.
By the way Phil, I do not believe I have the right to take another's life but, if I have to save an innocent bystander I will. Killing is not a simple solution and I wonder if, Ed agrees with this. Taking a life eats at one's soul and is not forgotten. When it does not, that is when murderers, serial killers, madmen are made.
Phil, if you think I am happy about sending my friends over and over and over again, you my friend are sadly mistaken. War has been with us since the beginning of time when GOD gave Man "Free Will." It is necessary to help the defenseless, the opressed and destroy the evils of society. It does not mean it is right either. We will all one day have to answer for our actions and live with our sins. I rather say I try to help someone than not at all. During the first Gulf War I was thanked by Kuwaitis for saving them. During Operation Iraqi Freedom I was thanked by the Kurds and Iraqis for saving them from a madman. I despited the Muslim World during 911 and was reminded that not all muslim are the same. Just like all Americans are not the same.
I respect your stance, John. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. I have seen enough "good" for too long. I have seen the aftermath, and I just don't see the world that way anymore.
BTW, I think all us Veterans should try to get together for morning breakfast on Veteran's Day. We may not agree with each other but, we all have one thing in common. We served OLD GLORY!
Okay Howard, Kyle, Peter, Phil and the rest of the Batavian Veterans. What would be a good day for breakfast? I work afternoons so, any morning would be good for me. Any suggestions?
I don't know about the US as
I don't know about the US as a whole, but OUR area seems to be doing pretty well:
http://www.buffalonews.com/business/article1026890.ece <------regarding home prices here
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-states/unemployment-rate <-------USA unemployment rate chart 2010-now (looks like it is finally coming down)
http://www.areavibes.com/buffalo-ny/employment/ <---and according to this site, we have a lower unemployment rate than the USA as a whole.
The Dow Jones just opened down at 13,073....but that is MUCH better than 8500 and change at the end of 2008
Personally, I was sitting on a bunch of empty real estate in 2008.....I now have only 1 vacancy, and folks are really digging my new porcelain products in my other business.
I am opitmistic that the new yogurt plants in this area will supply MUCH better wages than all the low paying retail jobs at the other end of town. Maybe in a few years, when folks are employed again, they will be able to buy their own houses in town (if the banks STOP BEING STINGY) and so many won't be landlord owned. That would be a GOOD thing!
Here is an article (i can't find the one i read a few days ago) about a shortage of auto mechanics in this country. There are going to be a LOT of these jobs avail as boomers retire:
http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20120904/BUSINESS01/30904000…
I hope this was helpful (and i hope I spelled everything right)
Julie, As I was reading your
Julie, As I was reading your post, the quarterly manufacturing numbers came out. (The worst showing in three years) The Market dropped 100 points in the time I read it also.
My point is that it is perspective.
1) Is the economy slowly improving? In some market areas yes, in others no, but in all much slower recovery than following any recession in over 100 years.
2) Is Western New York's economy improving? Yes it is indeed but that is largely because of local initiatives NOT the Federal Government
3) Will there be car mechanic jobs available in the near future? Yes, indeed there will be, but will those added jobs be enough to compensate for a growing population? The article you site doesn't address that at all.
Finally, Am I happy about the econmic development in our region? You betta I am, as we all should be.
Yes, your post was helpful, because there is perspective that needs to be reviewed on both sides of the argument.
[P.S. Your spelling is much, much better mine and many on here, it's your perspective that counts and is very much welcome.]
If $11 an hour is considered
If $11 an hour is considered a good wage, then those yogurt jobs will be good paying jobs.
To make the "better off as a
To make the "better off as a country" argument in terms of real indicators would be to wander into the delusional. I am waiting to see the two major themes over the next three days, #1 It's still George Bush's fault; #2 somehow Barack Obama was not President for the last 4 years. To lay out a campaign in terms of what path will you choose as a country would be to either admit that we were on the wrong path the last 4 years, or advocate staying to the same path. Both are illogical in terms of seeking re-election. The only feasible request for Obama to make is not a second term, but a second chance.
You're right Jeff blaming
You're right Jeff blaming Bush for the mess he and Cheney left is delusional. The choice is simple if the question is better off than it was four years ago when the country was on the brink of another Great Depression, banks failing, the auto industry near bankrupt,real estate values plunging, unemployment moving up at historic rates, and Osama Bin Laden was still sending out videos from his hideout in Pakistan, two unfunded wars still going on....in the last forty months, another Great Depression was avoided, banks were saved, the auto industry saved and thriving, unemployment steadily coming down with jobs added nearly every month, real estate values stabilized, Osama is dead and the American Auto industry is alive, the last troops in Iraq have been pulled out, and the final pullout in Afghanistan is on schedule.....this has all been accomplished in spite of an opposition party that has made it's number one priority keeping President Obama from a second term blocking, jobs bill after jobs bill, abortion bill after abortion bill, putting their party priorities above the country's. So far all we hear from Romney/Ryan is the desire to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent with increased reductions for corporations and the wealthiest people in the nation.
Ed, The Iraq pull out the was
Ed,
The Iraq pull out the was the result of Bush and the treaty with Iraq. Obama made every effort to ignore that treaty and get them to let us stay, but Iraq would not agree with the status of forces agreement we wanted. If Obama had his way, we would still have troops in Iraq. And remember, Obama was against the surge that allowed the withdrawal.
And how is Afghanistan going for you? We have more US troops being killed by our allies than by the enemy. In fact we just had to stop training some of them so they don't shoot us. The suicide rate for US troops is higher this year than ever. And Obama just agreed to keep us committed to the place after the official withdrawal.
He got OBL, despite the advice of Joe Biden not to try. He gets an A+ for that.
Yep, GM is around, and we, the taxpayer own it. We paid more per share than the company is worth. We saved Chrysler, for the 2nd time, so that Fiat, an Italian company can own it.
The fact that the final
The fact that the final pullout in Afghanistan is on schedule is primarily why more US boys are dying. The Taliban leadership is reading the same schedule
The point is the troops are
The point is the troops are out of Iraq despite calls from the three amigos McCain, Lieberman, and Graham to stay, Osama Bin Laden is dead, the banks were saved, Afghanistan is winding down and will accelerate going forward and while the U.S. Govt. still owns a sizable part of GM, Chrysler has paid off its debt and FIAT has a 20% stake not total ownership, a move that saved the industry and jobs.
The increased suicide rate for troop the military is a disgrace and the result of to many deployments over the last ten years, one war Iraq, that was started based on a foundation of lies and the other, Afghanistan, left fallow for several years to prosecute the one in Iraq leaving Bin Laden to escape to Pakistan instead of concentrating on the killing him and wiping out his confederates. Obama said what he meant and meant what he said regarding both wars ending the one and starting the process of ending the other.
You forgot that he kept the
You forgot that he kept the oceans for rising and he healed the earth.
How about his Executive Order
How about his Executive Order to close Guantanamo Bay?
Afghanistan seems to be getting worse by the day.
It was Bush's policies in Iraq that have allowed us to draw down the troops there.
Obama won a nobel peace price for doing nothing and that is what he has down as Commander in Chief.
This is an excellent
This is an excellent discussion on the subject at hand, a bit long, but worth the read when you have time. Cusack was an Obamaite who has become quite dissatisfied. Personally, I never trusted him form the start of his notoriety, too slick and polished.
http://truth-out.org/opinion/item/11264-john-cusack-and-jonathan-turley…
Ed, You are right about
Ed,
You are right about McCain and the others wanting us to stay, but SO DID OBAMA. We are out because of the treaty Bush signed and despite Obama.
To Bud: Don't you agree that
To Bud: Don't you agree that $11 an hour at a yogurt factory (or any factory) with some benefits is better than minimum wage at a retail store?
To Mark: Yes, the Dow was down today. Every day there is a 50% chance of it going up and a 50% chance of it going down. We are supposed to look at long term, and as of right now, the Dow closed at 13,035.94 which is still WAY above the horrible 8500 number from 4 years ago.
RE General Motors, new report out today: http://media.gm.com/media/us/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/… look pretty good
RE the AIG taxpayer bailout: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/aug/24/business/la-fi-aig-fed-bailout-… <----We MADE $17 Billion dollars
RE wars: Personally, I would rather do drone attacks so that our guys and gals in the service don't get hurt. I LOVE the fact that we can bomb the crap out of these people with an RC plane with a smart bomb or two :)... I don't know if it is cheaper, but I think it is safe to assume that it is cheaper since we don't have to pay for medical and mental health care for traumatized soldiers (?)
My hope is that these people in government learn how to (gasp) COMPROMISE and do what is right for the American people instead of letting party politics run their lives.
Don't blame me, I rooted for Jon Huntsman in the primaries.
The federal debt is close to
The federal debt is close to $16TRILLION..I just heard it on the radio. Hmm...at the end of 2008 our debt was about $9trillion. The debt has gone up in excess of $7trillion in 4 years and no matter whose fault it is, we're not better off. Simple math spells it out.
<img alt="undefined" title="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/US_Public_Debt…;
" So far all we hear from
" So far all we hear from Romney/Ryan is the desire to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent with increased reductions for corporations and the wealthiest people in the nation"
Your envy is making you green.
John, candidate Obama
John, candidate Obama opposed the war, candidate Obama promised to bring the troops home ASAP during his first term if elected, President Obama brought all of the troops home during his first term as promised over the objections of the three amigos McCain, Lieberman, and Graham. Bush signed onto a withdrawal agreement that proposed leaving troops as advisers, the Iraqi leaders dug in and refused to agree to a "Status of Forces Agreement" that foreclosed on the proposed bases to remain. The salient point is President Obama promised to bring the troops home in his first term and he did just that.
Peter, I agree 100% with you,
Peter, I agree 100% with you, you're absolutely correct so far all we hear from Romney/Ryan is the desire to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent with increased reductions for corporations and the wealthiest people in the nation. I may be green that's due to my Irish heritage and love of the environment, but envy just isn't in my nature.
If Bush had had any clue as
If Bush had had any clue as to what was going on, there would have been no troops to bring home from Iraq.
Ed, John is right on the
Ed, John is right on the troop withdrawl from Iraq. Obama did want to keep us there. I was part of the last USAF Security Forces Unit there and prior to our withdrawl we were notified that we may have to extend our tour to allow replacements. The good news was the Iraqi Government wanted us out. Frank, Bush having a clue was not the issue. The issue was letting Saddam play games and delay the UN Inspectors. If, he did not have WMDs what did he gain by not letting them in without delay? If he did not have WMDs he could make the US look like fools. Yes, he did eventually but, look at the length of the delay. If Saddam had no WMDs, how was two convoys hit by chemical IEDs during the war? Saddam is not stupid, he even buried sixty (60) of his fighters which were fully fueled and armed to avoid Ally Bombings. Saddam's delay allowed two things in his favor. One was to remove their WMDs and store them in neighboring countries. This led to advantage number two, making the US look like war mongers and Anti-Muslim.
Ed I do not see how
Ed I do not see how government control of business is a good idea for us? Banks were saved and now we pay higher interest on bank cards because of that. Obama's Health Care Reform uses tax dollars to support it. We are having to borrow trillions of dollars from China to support Obama's reforms.
Ed, Obama brought all my
Ed, Obama brought all my comrades back in his first term? Damn why is Steve still in Afghanistan?
John, the last time I
John, the last time I checked, there is still no actual proof of WMD,s in Iraq, now, or then.
If you consider an IED a WMD, you may have a point.
Saddam didn't make us look like war mongers, Bush proved we were.
Peter, Obama has already
Peter, Obama has already answered your questions recently. When asked how he graded himself as President. His answer was incomplete. Yeah, since he is figuring that he will be elected for another four years, he as a chance to bring his grade from an F to an A. Second, he is letting his wife do the speaking at the DNC. The main topic will be how the dreaded republicans are taking away women's rights.
Oh, I love how politicians take credit for Bin Laden’s death, like they put their life on the line. That is for all politicians. Obama is self-absorbed on how great he thinks he is.
Really Frank, an IED is not a
Really Frank, an IED is not a weapon of mass destruction! However, the chemical agent within are classified as such. Well you have the right to your opinion as do I. I am not a Bush fan by any means but, Saddam gets credit for the war monger in my eyes.
As for proof about WMDs, I feel that they may not have had a vast quantity of them. I do believe they did possess them since; some were used as I stated. Chemical Agents Frank not the IED itself. OPSEC/COMSEC is only as strong as it's people. I believe Saddam had a good grasp on both.
Frank, was the Nuclear
Frank, was the Nuclear Development Program in Iraq Dismantled before the war? Yes bit we didn't know that because of the vibrato the Saddam practiced.
'
But there was evidence of WMD's just not the huge stockpiles we thought. And yes WE thought, not just GW but Clinton as well. I am not making an arguement for justifiying the war, but some things need to be brought to the light of day.
FACT: In June of 2006 the National Ground Intelligence Center, a Defense Department intelligence unit, released portions of a declassified report which stated unequivocally that "Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent."
Here is a more respectable link
http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=15918
FACT: In a January 2008 report on 60 minutes, top CIA operative George Piro revealed that Saddam Hussein had phased out his biological weapons program since the 90s but was willing to go to war with the U.S., because he needed to continue the illusion that he had an active WMD program, as a hedge against his arch enemy, Iran. He apparently had no idea that the U.S. was planning such an exhaustive offensive, or he would’ve reconsidered that strategy
FACT: Saddam was planning on restarting his program on every level (nuclear and biological), approximately one year after U.N. sanctions were lifted. This explains why he was actively approaching North Africa for the procurement of yellow cake. This also explains why 550 metric tons of the stuff was removed from Iraq in 2008 courtesy of the United States of America.
Mark, you know that won't
Mark, you know that won't manner. People are so, anti-Bush and republican that they will state it is all fabrication. (Sarcasm) Hey Mark, if you have not already read the "Black Banner" by Ali Stoufan.
It's all of the Republicans
It's all of the Republicans fault! No, it's the Democrats. No, the Republicans! No, Democrats!
That's all I got out of this discussions.
It's both the Republicans and the Democrats fault.
Both parties, leaders from both parties, more interested in their own aggrandizement than peace and prosperity (which when you boil it down is the only job of the federal government).
We will have neither peace nor prosperity so long as voters keep supporting the two parties of war and spending.
Removed Double
Removed Double
First John I thank you for
First John I thank you for your service and you are back home and able to debate these questions with a weary old veteran of another war. I said Obama brought all of the troops out of Irag. I don't know why Steve is still in Afghanistan, what I do know is that President Obama has said he would have all of the troops out by 2013 and Mitt Romney has stated time and again that he would keep our troops there until they are finished with the mission and the generals tell him it's time to withdraw the troops. Generals can always find reasons to stay and command the troops in the field and give rosy assessments of how with a little more time and few more troops they will prevail. History has shown that listening to the generals when there is no reason to stay only results in more casualties. I also know that in any deployment that I was associated with there is always confusion at the tail end and what was the order of the day Monday morning is often different at noon and changed again before dinner, it's the nature of the beast. I hope and pray that all of the troops are out of Afghanistan sooner rather than later, I still have more than a few friends with sons and daughters who I care about still there as well as a number of friends from the U.K., and Canada who have loved ones still there. I believe that President Obama will have them out of there as promised and trust that he is good for his word on this based on his past performance.
I agree with you Howard that
I agree with you Howard that it is both parties fault.
The economic melt down was NOT the fault solely of George Bush.
It was not the fault of the Dems either
I have said this before and will stick by it, it was Politicans all around who prioritized spending around relection efforts over decades that lead to that crisis. Parties really had nothing to do with it, they were merely the vessels for political greed on both sides.
John, I deleted your other
John, I deleted your other post because it was double, and you edited your second post at the same time, so now you're post is, sadly, gone.
I am so with you, Howard.
I am so with you, Howard. These debates are a broken record. BLAH BLAH BLAH Obama, BLAH BLAH BLAH Bush...Listen, Bush ruined this country. He took a nation in shock and placed us in two costly wars, once for retaliation, the other for oil. He spent trillions in debt, put all of his buddies in power and made sure their companies made billions.
Obama did what his ideals dictate him to, he tried to spend us out of a depression. Yes, folks it was a depression, and did it work? Kind of. Regardless it has cost us and our children a debt that we can't possibly recoup right now.
Are we better than four years ago? I guess that depends on what industry and part of the nation you're in.
The bottom line is we can't afford either or your bloated parties anymore.
Deaths of US soldiers have
Deaths of US soldiers have doubled in Afghanistan since Obama took office. DOUBLED. And yet No Cindy Sheehan camped out on Obamas lawn, no Code Pink or Move On.org to be heard. We heard ad nauseum during the last campaign about getting out of both wars. We left Iraq under the Bush treaty, remain in Afghanistan with record death toll and not one mention of holding Obama accountable for those lives. Amazing how US military deaths somehow become palatable and politically irrelevant under a different Administration. Osama Bin Laden is dead because our military did it's job. No one can point to a strategy that Obama employed that led to his killing. AGAIN, the auto industry was not saved, GM and Chrysler were given taxpayer handouts and as a result GM is heading once again toward a second bankruptcy if changes are not made, the Volt is quickly becoming the next Edsel and Chrysler in now owned by the Italians, I hardly call that thriving.
Sure Jeff, and now Romney is
Sure Jeff, and now Romney is ready to go send more young men and women to die in Iran, while continuing operations in Afghanistan!
We shouldn't be in any of it! Enough is enough.
Jeff, your assertion that the
Jeff, your assertion that the deaths of any of our troops or the NATO troops in Afghanistan have have become more palatable and politically irrelevant because of a change in any Administration, Democrat or Republican is offensive. Such a remark has no place in a civil debate on the issue of putting the young men and women who serve in the military into harms way, as a citizen it is truly disturbing to think that anyone would express such utter contempt for duly elected officials.
Ed, spare me the civil debate
Ed, spare me the civil debate lecture and the offensive post line. You beat the anti war drum as loud as anybody but then turn around and give Obama credit for "success" in Afghanistan ( post#6) when soldiers have died at twice, sometimes three times the rate they did under Bush. Quite frankly, it is your hypocrisy and that of all the others who are now silent on continuing war deaths that dishonor to the troops who are currently risking their lives.
Ed, There can be very little
Ed,
There can be very little serious arguement that the anti war people have laid down for Obama. But maybe you can tell us where they are?
Ed along with John's comment
Ed along with John's comment I'd like to say in a truly civil debate, truth no matter how ugly or distasteful it is still discussed. The truly disturbing part is in fact what John has pointed out the fact that with the casulties and problems we have seen in Afganistan which make what we were dealing with in Iraq pale in comparison yet those that were shouting the loudest about the wars at the Bush admin are now strangely silent. Thats a fact, a truth not anything else. So stop dodging the "offesnive assertion" and either answer or not. The indignation and outrage really doesnt cut it as a response.
Sorry Ed, your comment did
Sorry Ed, your comment did not state Iraq. Obama was trying to extend our stay in Iraq. That came with our OPS briefing. He took us out because, he had no choice to since, the Iraqi Government denied his request. Which I am glad they did. Ed, like you I feel that we need to stop Policing the World. We all know the Middle East hates us and we are viewed as mercenaries so, they do not lose their own souls in battle.
Afghanistan is a lost cause and a catch 22. If, we leave the Taliban will use that to help recuit more terrorist to bring another 911 on our door step. If, we stay it will take in my eyes, at least three generations of American Soldiers to win the minds of the Afghanis. Not to mention three more generations of dead American Soldiers. People think if, we leave them alone they will not bother us, that is wrongful thinking. They do not think like you and I. Read that book I suggested to Mark called, "Black Banner." It is written by an FBI Agent from a Muslim Country.
Afghanistan has many villages/clans who do not even know they are part of a country or even have an government. I just read a book by a Scottish Journalist who walked across Afghanistan before and during the war. His name escapes my mind but, it was a great book. Gives a lot of insight on how they view themselves and the world.
I agree with you to a point
I agree with you to a point Phil. However, do we really want Iran to be a nuclear power? Islam preaches peaces but, lets not forget it calls for war. If, we go after Iran we should use special ops and assist the Israelis in shutting down there program. Surgical strikes rather than a full ground assault. Like I stated, islam nations do not think like the majority of the world.
Leaving them alone will make them leave us alone? No, that will not be the case. Look at the past couple decades with attacks against the US such as, Khobar Towers, Twin Towers (93), USS Cole etc... We did not go to war after these attacks and the terrorist felt we were weak and unwilling to fight. They kept striking such as our esbassy in Africa, Indonesia etc...
I agree with you to a point
I agree with you to a point Phil. However, do we really want Iran to be a nuclear power? Islam preaches peaces but, lets not forget it calls for war. If, we go after Iran we should use special ops and assist the Israelis in shutting down there program. Surgical strikes rather than a full ground assault. Like I stated, islam nations do not think like the majority of the world.
Leaving them alone will make them leave us alone? No, that will not be the case. Look at the past couple decades with attacks against the US such as, Khobar Towers, Twin Towers (93), USS Cole etc... We did not go to war after these attacks and the terrorist felt we were weak and unwilling to fight. They kept striking such as our esbassy in Africa, Indonesia etc...
That is okay Howard. I just
That is okay Howard. I just agree with you on the part that both democrats and republicans own blame in this country's collapse. Since, our government has forgotten that they work for us and not themselves. They become self serving and worry about their own needs over the peoples' needs.
As far as the discussion
As far as the discussion being about democrats versus republicans, I believe the above is rather a segment of the topic at hand "Are we better off than four years ago? Ed, brought up the issue about how Obama brought home our troops when in reality he really did not. As I mention my unit 506 ESFS was told that we might be extended until we get replacements because, Obama wanted to extend our stay in Iraq.
BTW Ed, Thank You for your
BTW Ed, Thank You for your service as well from one VET to another VET.
John, "However, do we really
John,
"However, do we really want Iran to be a nuclear power?" Do I want Russia, the UK, France, China, or the US to have them either? NO. You know, it always amazes me that people talk about the craziness of Islam, when we have plenty of psychos bombing our own buildings, clubs where they wear hoods, burn churches and kill blacks, people shooting up Theaters, and innocent kids at Pathmark, and so on.
What got us here? Needless war, and us telling the rest of the world how to live. We spent $25 Billion last year on foreign aid to help nations, yet we spent $158 Billion on two senseless wars. Seriously?
Why would I listen to that tired thinking anymore?
Phil, Russia, China, France,
Phil, Russia, China, France, United Kingdom and the US all understand the devastation and the misery of nuclear warfare. They all have a common view on life. Not to mention they all have respect for this power. Iran and the rest of the Islam world do not share that same point or common view.
Really comparing the KKK and a few psycho domestic terrorist bombings to a nuclear denotation. I will agree that we have issues with domestic terrorist but, that would hardly compare to a nuclear strike. Not only will it kill millions but, affect the world environmentally. Your problem along with some other people believe that the rest of this world sees things as we do. That is just not the case. No I do not want war. I am tired of deployments but, if I have to do it to protect my countrymen and myself, I will. Like Ed I am weary from serving in foreign wars. Until the world settles their social, reglious, cultural, etc... differences there will never be true peace. Oh, if it does happen it is the end for us here.
Oh I see your logic, John.
Oh I see your logic, John. Because they understand the devastation, (they/we're) deserving? What a crock.
So what is your answer? Send over special ops, kill a bunch of people, steal tech and presto it's done? Do you know what your problem is, John? You think that the these answers are so simple. You think that if we keep killing people that we'll be safe. That these terrorist will not keep coming, and growing by those actions.
And I was not comparing them to a nuclear bomb. I though I made it clear, but I'll break it down, We have nutcases in this country, just like Islam. Nut jobs are a part of every society. Should we send special forces in our neighborhoods to start killing those who talk crazy here?
We do not garner peace by continuing to kill.
No Phil, I am not saying they
No Phil, I am not saying they or we are deserving. I am saying that the chance of Russia, China, France, UK and the US of using a nuclear device is slim to none. Iran would use it and stated they will use it.
Special Ops kill a bunch of people? First what do you classify a bunch as? 1-12;13-36; 37-100; 100-1000; 1001-10000; 10001-100000, etc... Second of all if it means taking out the few with the knowledge to create such a device and the equipment and materials needed to make such device. Then yes since, killing a few to save millions is justified. Sad to say but, the truth in this matter. Should we have ignored Germany opression on Europe? Should we have turned a blind eye to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor?
Phil when you compare Iran's
Phil when you compare Iran's desire for nuclear power to that of KKK and domestic terrorism bombings, then yes you are comparing them. I agree we have nut cases but, the threat of Iran developing nuclear weapons is far more an threat to not just the US security but, other nations of the world as well.
BTW, I do not believe there is such a thing as simple solutions Phil. These are difficult decisions which you have the weight the impact of the bad versus the impact of the good. If we do not observe this then we become no different than the bad side of humanity.
John W., The idea that an
John W.,
The idea that an Islamic country should not have the bomb is a bit moot. Pakistan has had one for awhile and has not used it, even against their worst enemy-India.
Let us all not forget, the
Let us all not forget, the Nuclear Genie left the Bottle in 1945, it is never going back in.
There will most liklely never be a defense system that can not at some point be circumvented or overwhelmed and
Most important, we did not pursue Nuclear Weapons out of greed and/or imperial quest, we developed because the Germans were very close to developing one in WWII.
We didn't use the two Bombs in World War II so that we could be the big kids on the Block, we did used them because in every scenario we could calculate ending world war II by convetional means would have cost an estimated 3 million additional lives, 1 million of them American.
The escalation began immediately after the war when the Soviets developed their own and the arms race began, perhaps we could have handled that differently in the late 40's and 50's perhaps not but we will never know.
One thing is fact. it was the realization that if either side struck first, the other would reap equal or greater destruction that prevented the cold war turning into a World War III, the cuban missle crisis didn't end because JFK was agreat negotiator, it was because Kruchev realized that JFK would actually use nukes if the Soviets did, and would infact strike Cuba to remove the soviet Missles.
The fact is that we will not in our lifetime see a nuke free world as sad as that may be, but the sad fact is also that it will not be the US, Russia, France, The UK, India or China that will first use one, and the consequences for ignoring that could be world changing proportions.
John R, What is going on in
John R, What is going on in Pakistan with regard to Nukes actually scares me only a little less than Iran getting them.
What is scary about Iran is they seem more likely to use nukes as weapon not only in real terms but in geo political terms as well
And so does North Korea. What
And so does North Korea. What you forget is that Iran has admit that they will use them against Israel. What you forget is that India has them pointed back at Pakistan. Not to mention India would not need as many to wipe out Pakistan either.
Lets simplify things a little
Lets simplify things a little more. All of the current nuclear powers while not always reasonable, are aware of the consequences of their use. However Iran and others becoming nuclear powers, and having members of their society and govts of a jhiadist frame of mind. Is that really a comforting thought? I mean some of these people are willing to strap on vests and blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces just to make a political statement. Do we want them having even an iota of access to nukes or even atomic type munitions of anykind?
Absolutely Right Mark. Our
Absolutely Right Mark. Our scientist shared nuclear knowledge with Russia after WWII because, of other benefits such as its ability to be used as a power source as we have today. I am not against Iran wanting it for that but, I am against them having Nuclear Weapons.
Kyle, lets not forget they
Kyle, lets not forget they could make a dirty bomb as well with radioactive materials. One would think Phil's answer would be no but, then again?
I'm sorry John, are we making
I'm sorry John, are we making dick comments now?
One can make a bomb with Drano too (I watched McGuyver), so what? Look, I'm tired of sending young kids to die. You Served, Ed Served, Kyle Served and I served. How many more have to keep dying for this?
It's and endless cycle with no end in sight. I'm done.
By the way Phil, I do not
By the way Phil, I do not believe I have the right to take another's life but, if I have to save an innocent bystander I will. Killing is not a simple solution and I wonder if, Ed agrees with this. Taking a life eats at one's soul and is not forgotten. When it does not, that is when murderers, serial killers, madmen are made.
Phil, if you think I am happy
Phil, if you think I am happy about sending my friends over and over and over again, you my friend are sadly mistaken. War has been with us since the beginning of time when GOD gave Man "Free Will." It is necessary to help the defenseless, the opressed and destroy the evils of society. It does not mean it is right either. We will all one day have to answer for our actions and live with our sins. I rather say I try to help someone than not at all. During the first Gulf War I was thanked by Kuwaitis for saving them. During Operation Iraqi Freedom I was thanked by the Kurds and Iraqis for saving them from a madman. I despited the Muslim World during 911 and was reminded that not all muslim are the same. Just like all Americans are not the same.
I removed double
I removed double
I respect your stance, John.
I respect your stance, John. I don't agree with it, but I respect it. I have seen enough "good" for too long. I have seen the aftermath, and I just don't see the world that way anymore.
Phil, I agree. Lets part on
Phil, I agree. Lets part on this. We both agree that we do not like seeing our brethren in harm's way.
BTW, I think all us Veterans
BTW, I think all us Veterans should try to get together for morning breakfast on Veteran's Day. We may not agree with each other but, we all have one thing in common. We served OLD GLORY!
Agreed.
Agreed.
First, I'm with Phil. He
First, I'm with Phil. He hasn't said anything I disagree with.
And I'm in on a Vet's breakfast, but Vet's Day may not be the best for me because they're usually events I need to cover.
I'm up for a Vet's Breakfast.
I'm up for a Vet's Breakfast.
Just name the day and place!
Just name the day and place!
My wife is on the committee
My wife is on the committee for this, so I will probably be there.
https://www.facebook.com/RITVeteransDayBreakfast
Okay Howard, Kyle, Peter,
Okay Howard, Kyle, Peter, Phil and the rest of the Batavian Veterans. What would be a good day for breakfast? I work afternoons so, any morning would be good for me. Any suggestions?
Weekends are fine with me.
Weekends are fine with me. The breakfast I mentioned above is on the 9th which is a Friday