Didn't the city just spend 30,000 dollars to repave a small piece of a parking lot on Center St..All i have seen parking there is Verizon work trucks ,and the other part used to store trash....Is that considered commercial use?...Better to have property on the tax rolls then empty parking lots..
We need to stop trying to force commercial activity and economic development. God this is such a silly merry-go-round. Lower taxes anywhere and anyway for however much we can, eliminate or reduce any regulation, licensing and zoning requirements that make sense. I know the state forces mandates on us, blah blah blah. There are ways government obstruction can be reduced or removed locally. Then and only then will commercial economic development happen. It's so incredibly obvious and sensible. Trying to force change didn't work in the 60's and 70's when they built the mall and it won't work now.
Dave, the parking lots are all city owned, so they're not going to just magically transform themselves into commercial spaces, no matter how many regulations you get rid of or how much you lower the taxes.
Meanwhile, in Syracuse, working within the same economic environment that seemingly shackles Batavia, they turned a two-city block area that was a few years ago a parking lot into a multi-story commercial structure with retail and restaurants on the first floor and it radically transformed that entire section of the city.
I know this not just because Tim Tielman talked about but because I was just there a few weeks ago.
Unless there is a community vision and a combined community effort, nothing will ever change.
Although parking is certainly needed, there is WAY too much of it in downtown Batavia. Behind the mall is mostly unused as is most of the spaces by Sav-a-Lot, just as examples.
But Dave is right. Until unfunded mandates are eliminated and the overall tax burden on NY citizens and businesses are lessened to a great extent, instead of "New York - Open for Business", our motto should be "Build and They Still Won't Come".
As a side note, I loved the way Tielman rebuked GCEDC - common sense does indeed live.
I'm in the 'cuse once a month or so. I know where you are referring to. Syracuse has far more resources to draw upon than Batavia, and their situation was a bit more dire. About the only comparison between the 2 is the NYS boot on all our necks. I agree with you Howard about vision and community; there's no doubt there has to be a will to change. I'm not all that sure it exists in Genesee County, but that's another discussion.
My point is that if taxes and stupid rules are relaxed across the board then maybe you will have long term investors get interested. Some might even buy up a parking lot or 2 from the city and build on it. You need retailers and other industries that are here for the long term and they need to know that the atmosphere is permanent. They will also want to see younger people living in the city who believe their future is right here. Again not much of that to point to. So no, there's no magic formula, I never said there was, just plain common sense solutions. Government's job at any level is not to create economic opportunity, it's role is not to transform a downtown, that is for private enterprise. It should never be looking for ways to increase revenue. Government's role is to manage necessary services at the most efficient level possible, and that's it. Do that right and then, "They will come"
Tielman is half right. Encouraging small business, with all its variation and vibrancy is exactly what should be the focus of economic development. Killing off parking and forcing "density" as public policy is as asinine as tearing down the business district and building the "prison" on Main Street was back in the seventies.
The redesign of the "prison" (and the re-purposing of some of it for municipal use) has made a great improvement on the visuals and the likelihood of attracting foot traffic and business to that sad legacy of progressive ideas.
Today, in areas other than urban anthills, people expect to be able park their cars near to where they will be shopping. There is no bus or subway. We have A taxi cab here. And, that is due to the free market, not crony capitalist government regulation. Small cities don't have enough money to waste on unprofitable "public transportation" schemes like big cities can subsidize with tax revenues. That is a huge variable that is being missed by Tielman.
Relying on the few thousand residents of a small city to be a) Interested in your merchandise and b) Willing to walk to your store because there is no parking, is idiocy. I have a small store in a small town that has customers who drive in from two counties away just to do business with us. That is the power of small business. Tielman gets that part.
What he does not get is that life is different in urban anthills than it is in the vast spaces of America. He should keep in mind that there are some things that are so ridiculous, only an urban planner can believe them. Parking is key to foot traffic in your store when you don't exist in an urban anthill. The Metro isn't here; and if it was, not enough people would use it to keep it in operation. One size never fits all.
Sometimes we can fool ourselves by thinking that what we know can work in one situation is a universal law, not a localized solution.
Howard, Comparing Batavia to Syracuse is akin to comparing Syracuse to the appendix. Apple, meet basketball.
The solution to economic development is to free individuals to come up with ways to provide their neighbors with the things that their neighbors want and need. Forcing economic development is like farming by standing over a bean sprout yelling at it to grow NOW!
A farmer knows more about how to grow plants, herds, families and economies than academicians ever will.
I had the pleasure of hearing him speak at the New York State Library Association annual dinner this year in Buffalo. Subsequently my wife visited the places that he described in Buffalo.
A higher density should be the ultimate goal, but how was that achieved in Buffalo and Syracuse and other cities.
1st, the festival concept, rather than annual festivals, street vendor and concerts like those Canal Side became every weekend events through out the summer, as they grew, the draw made a high density arrangement more economically feasible. Soon, the weekends were supplemented with increased day to day activity, and then, the density increased on it's own.
I was never a believer in the 'Field Of Dreams' concept 'If you build it, they don't always come.' However, if you create the draw and build upon the draw, you can build the density over time. Suppose that the 'Concerts at Jackson Square' were held every weekend all weekend instead of Friday night's alone. Then ad vendor stands each weekend in the Mall parking lot, artisan, produce and even hot dog vendors. I can envision, Harry's, Main Street Pizza, city slickers and the restaurants on Jackson street immediately benefiting from the increased traffic, and I can also see the need for more restaurants of that nature in that area.
Would it not be better to spend the money advertising such a regular event and first draw people to the area, then encourage entrepreneurs to first revitalize some of the somewhat empty buildings based on the draw of an every weekend event? As you build that event you also build the market. That is exactly what they did in the city of Niagara Falls, now every weekend in the summer, the streets are full of people from all over western New York, people that bounce from one event to another every weekend.
Then, as that event grows, and it will if we advertise it outside of Genesee County, increasing the density and creating the walkways gradually comes into being. Imagine horse drawn rides like we have had during Christmas in the city every weekend in the summer, instead of blocking streets like we do for our festivals, grow it to the point where, the local business reap direct traffic, if the parking lots fill then gradually move the vendors into the empty spaces in the mall or the maul concourse.
That is what Mr. Tielman was actually suggesting, creating events (Starting Small) and growing them using the existing vacant architecture first and then increasing the density as you grow it. but starting small and steadily growing it.
That takes community commitment I understand, but building the density has to start with building the local commitment. We are blessed here in the county with such artisans, using Go Art, local and regional; musicians, this is something that can be done, but not if the penny saver WBTA and the Batavian are the only source of advertising, they should be the hub of the advertising yes, but the commitment for dollars needs to begin with an event and advertising those events on Buffalo and Rochester TV and Radio, rather than bricks and steel. Line the sidewalks with vendors and as you grow that, more vendors will want to come as well as more vendors who might establish permanent shops if we can create that draw.
The city of Batavia has lost too much to the town of Batavia in the way of retail,which is what goes into making a downtown main street..To me it would seem that it is about property taxation..The town has a zero tax rate...If you had a building worth 300,000 dollars where would you put it..So property tax has to be one part of the equitation..We do have to many parking lots..Until the city and the town can work together on this issue thru consolidation the downtown of the city of Batavia will be what it is ..And that is nothing more than a few bars and restaurants....Example.Why would anyone open a shoe store in downtown Batavia when the town has at least three that i know of plus what Wal Mart ,Kmart ,Target and now because of tax breaks Dicks sells ...The Veterans Drive in the town of Batavia is our new Main Street....Drive down Main Street after dark...it is dead,,Dark street lights and empty buildings..Drive down Veterans Drive after dark and every store is busy with shoppers....The street lights are even brighter..
Downtown parking was 'largely' driven by the National Guard. Their inventory of troop transporters had to be cleaned and air-dried every 6 months; the short trip up State Street was very convenient. The initial mall project had included 'plans' for some form of high-density parking garage. The overhead clearance was of insufficient height for most of the Guard's vehicles, so the plan was scrapped. ...Later in the 1970s, the city came up with the idea for 'Pic-a-nic Basket Day.' A local pizza parlor would loan its jumbo balloon fashioned as Yogi Bear to the organizers. Scads of Batavia families would spread out blankets on the pavement and enjoy an al fresco dining experience while members of the mail carriers union performed on spoons and kazoos.
To be honest, in this discussion I am a little behind the curve, but I thought I'd make a suggestion. The Mall here in downtown always seems to be the big pink elephant in the room. I have been through there many times especially when walking from the southside to theTVFCU to warm up on cold days. I have seen a few of the stores come an go in there even in my 5 or 6 yrs here. But we have this building underutilized and it has ALOT of parking right?
Why not take Mr. Brudz's idea but apply it to the mall. I dont know who actually owns/rents the spaces but What if things that draw crowds here. Like the Mammoth Sale, or Crossroads Parking lot Sale. There are craft fairs and things like Jackson Square music festivals that could be held indoors. during the fall and winter.
I mean all those empty spaces make no money empty. But what if the farmers market continued all year round in there. How about a community potluck dinner in there once every season (4 times a year) I mean come on it's obviously going to waste and to be honest any traffic in there is gonna benefit all of downtown. Offer a space to a caterer and hold dinners and business meetings. It just seems so obvious.
Just had to add my 2 cents there as I have wondered why we preserve a big dead spot in the middle of Batavia. Look at Save A Lot I remember when that parking lot was empty all the time . Now the areas in front of it are busy from 9 to 5 everyday and getting busier. Sure its pretty empty at night but hey as was said here in earlier posts.......start small.
Anything is better than just sitting around complaining and whining til it becomes so much background noise that no one pays attention anymore.
I don't see anybody here accepting the status quo of failure. I see realistic appraisals of why we are in this situation. I would love to see a vibrant and bustling Batavia downtown. Mark B. and Kyle C. have some great suggestions, You have to find ways to draw people from outside of Batavia and you do that by capitalizing on what we have. We do have much to offer. Then you have to get people to WANT (sorry for the caps) to be here and do business here and live here. Not incentivise them to give it a try. It can happen, but (sorry again, this time for the worn out cliche) we have to think outside the box. Tired out old government-centric solutions are well inside the box, the old dusty box that should be thrown out. What they are doing at Canalside is brilliant and is working, slowly, but heading in the right direction. The Bass Pro idea was totally asinine, I'm glad that was scrapped. There's a lot of government involvement, but with a stated purpose of getting it out of the mix. The city, state, county and NFTA are selling off chunks of land and buildings to private entities who are then building on what Buffalo has that people like. Hockey, history, diversity, ethnic food, Lake Erie, etc. Now if they can find a way to build a new peace bridge (peacefully) before it falls into the river and screws everything up, they will keep having successes. Since I'm on Buffalo, about 30 or so years ago, they stopped traffic on Main Street downtown, put in the subway and thought that would create foot traffic to help downtown retail. Brilliant. worked so well, they are now opening part of it back up for parking and vehicles.
Mark B explained the start small concept better than I did.
Combing those comments with what Tielman said about Jackson Square:
To me, the perfect place to start setting up tent vendors every weekend is the row of parking spaces along Jackson Street.
If the core of what Batavia once was is Jackson Square, then the logical thing is to build density around it, starting with the tent vendor concept.
Forget about the mall. It's dead space.
Though I do kind of like the city's concept of opening up Jackson Street across main up to Alva and putting in a couple of high density buildings there. If that goes through, it makes tent vendors on Jackson make all that much more sense.
Also, let the town of the cultural wasteland of Batavia Towne Plaza. We're talking about building a real downtown with an authentic, real people culture, and that means locally owned businesses tied to and committed to the community.
Entrepreneurs will start businesses where they see opportunities. Open up opportunities and more of them pop up, and do it at density, and people will show up. Give people a reason to show up and they'll show up. They always do. It's human nature, as Tielman explained.
Didn't the city just spend
Didn't the city just spend 30,000 dollars to repave a small piece of a parking lot on Center St..All i have seen parking there is Verizon work trucks ,and the other part used to store trash....Is that considered commercial use?...Better to have property on the tax rolls then empty parking lots..
We need to stop trying to
We need to stop trying to force commercial activity and economic development. God this is such a silly merry-go-round. Lower taxes anywhere and anyway for however much we can, eliminate or reduce any regulation, licensing and zoning requirements that make sense. I know the state forces mandates on us, blah blah blah. There are ways government obstruction can be reduced or removed locally. Then and only then will commercial economic development happen. It's so incredibly obvious and sensible. Trying to force change didn't work in the 60's and 70's when they built the mall and it won't work now.
go up! Fill the space!
go up! Fill the space!
Dave, the parking lots are
Dave, the parking lots are all city owned, so they're not going to just magically transform themselves into commercial spaces, no matter how many regulations you get rid of or how much you lower the taxes.
Meanwhile, in Syracuse, working within the same economic environment that seemingly shackles Batavia, they turned a two-city block area that was a few years ago a parking lot into a multi-story commercial structure with retail and restaurants on the first floor and it radically transformed that entire section of the city.
I know this not just because Tim Tielman talked about but because I was just there a few weeks ago.
Unless there is a community vision and a combined community effort, nothing will ever change.
You need both. We can do with
You need both. We can do with less downtown parking, but if you have too little, people will go where they can park. The balance is the tricky part.
Although parking is certainly
Although parking is certainly needed, there is WAY too much of it in downtown Batavia. Behind the mall is mostly unused as is most of the spaces by Sav-a-Lot, just as examples.
But Dave is right. Until unfunded mandates are eliminated and the overall tax burden on NY citizens and businesses are lessened to a great extent, instead of "New York - Open for Business", our motto should be "Build and They Still Won't Come".
As a side note, I loved the way Tielman rebuked GCEDC - common sense does indeed live.
I'm in the 'cuse once a month
I'm in the 'cuse once a month or so. I know where you are referring to. Syracuse has far more resources to draw upon than Batavia, and their situation was a bit more dire. About the only comparison between the 2 is the NYS boot on all our necks. I agree with you Howard about vision and community; there's no doubt there has to be a will to change. I'm not all that sure it exists in Genesee County, but that's another discussion.
My point is that if taxes and stupid rules are relaxed across the board then maybe you will have long term investors get interested. Some might even buy up a parking lot or 2 from the city and build on it. You need retailers and other industries that are here for the long term and they need to know that the atmosphere is permanent. They will also want to see younger people living in the city who believe their future is right here. Again not much of that to point to. So no, there's no magic formula, I never said there was, just plain common sense solutions. Government's job at any level is not to create economic opportunity, it's role is not to transform a downtown, that is for private enterprise. It should never be looking for ways to increase revenue. Government's role is to manage necessary services at the most efficient level possible, and that's it. Do that right and then, "They will come"
Tielman is half right.
Tielman is half right. Encouraging small business, with all its variation and vibrancy is exactly what should be the focus of economic development. Killing off parking and forcing "density" as public policy is as asinine as tearing down the business district and building the "prison" on Main Street was back in the seventies.
The redesign of the "prison" (and the re-purposing of some of it for municipal use) has made a great improvement on the visuals and the likelihood of attracting foot traffic and business to that sad legacy of progressive ideas.
Today, in areas other than urban anthills, people expect to be able park their cars near to where they will be shopping. There is no bus or subway. We have A taxi cab here. And, that is due to the free market, not crony capitalist government regulation. Small cities don't have enough money to waste on unprofitable "public transportation" schemes like big cities can subsidize with tax revenues. That is a huge variable that is being missed by Tielman.
Relying on the few thousand residents of a small city to be a) Interested in your merchandise and b) Willing to walk to your store because there is no parking, is idiocy. I have a small store in a small town that has customers who drive in from two counties away just to do business with us. That is the power of small business. Tielman gets that part.
What he does not get is that life is different in urban anthills than it is in the vast spaces of America. He should keep in mind that there are some things that are so ridiculous, only an urban planner can believe them. Parking is key to foot traffic in your store when you don't exist in an urban anthill. The Metro isn't here; and if it was, not enough people would use it to keep it in operation. One size never fits all.
Sometimes we can fool ourselves by thinking that what we know can work in one situation is a universal law, not a localized solution.
Howard, Comparing Batavia to
Howard, Comparing Batavia to Syracuse is akin to comparing Syracuse to the appendix. Apple, meet basketball.
The solution to economic development is to free individuals to come up with ways to provide their neighbors with the things that their neighbors want and need. Forcing economic development is like farming by standing over a bean sprout yelling at it to grow NOW!
A farmer knows more about how to grow plants, herds, families and economies than academicians ever will.
The idea that comparing
The idea that comparing Syracuse to Batavia in the example used being ridiculous is well, ridiculous and ill-informed.
The fact is, density works.
Where density exists and there is something exists to attract people, people will come. Parking or not. They will find a a way.
Parking as it exists in downtown Batavia now is a waste of space.
Come on people -- let's have some imagination and vision and not just accept the status quo of failure.
Tielman said "START SMALL" I
Tielman said "START SMALL"
I had the pleasure of hearing him speak at the New York State Library Association annual dinner this year in Buffalo. Subsequently my wife visited the places that he described in Buffalo.
A higher density should be the ultimate goal, but how was that achieved in Buffalo and Syracuse and other cities.
1st, the festival concept, rather than annual festivals, street vendor and concerts like those Canal Side became every weekend events through out the summer, as they grew, the draw made a high density arrangement more economically feasible. Soon, the weekends were supplemented with increased day to day activity, and then, the density increased on it's own.
I was never a believer in the 'Field Of Dreams' concept 'If you build it, they don't always come.' However, if you create the draw and build upon the draw, you can build the density over time. Suppose that the 'Concerts at Jackson Square' were held every weekend all weekend instead of Friday night's alone. Then ad vendor stands each weekend in the Mall parking lot, artisan, produce and even hot dog vendors. I can envision, Harry's, Main Street Pizza, city slickers and the restaurants on Jackson street immediately benefiting from the increased traffic, and I can also see the need for more restaurants of that nature in that area.
Would it not be better to spend the money advertising such a regular event and first draw people to the area, then encourage entrepreneurs to first revitalize some of the somewhat empty buildings based on the draw of an every weekend event? As you build that event you also build the market. That is exactly what they did in the city of Niagara Falls, now every weekend in the summer, the streets are full of people from all over western New York, people that bounce from one event to another every weekend.
Then, as that event grows, and it will if we advertise it outside of Genesee County, increasing the density and creating the walkways gradually comes into being. Imagine horse drawn rides like we have had during Christmas in the city every weekend in the summer, instead of blocking streets like we do for our festivals, grow it to the point where, the local business reap direct traffic, if the parking lots fill then gradually move the vendors into the empty spaces in the mall or the maul concourse.
That is what Mr. Tielman was actually suggesting, creating events (Starting Small) and growing them using the existing vacant architecture first and then increasing the density as you grow it. but starting small and steadily growing it.
That takes community commitment I understand, but building the density has to start with building the local commitment. We are blessed here in the county with such artisans, using Go Art, local and regional; musicians, this is something that can be done, but not if the penny saver WBTA and the Batavian are the only source of advertising, they should be the hub of the advertising yes, but the commitment for dollars needs to begin with an event and advertising those events on Buffalo and Rochester TV and Radio, rather than bricks and steel. Line the sidewalks with vendors and as you grow that, more vendors will want to come as well as more vendors who might establish permanent shops if we can create that draw.
The city of Batavia has lost
The city of Batavia has lost too much to the town of Batavia in the way of retail,which is what goes into making a downtown main street..To me it would seem that it is about property taxation..The town has a zero tax rate...If you had a building worth 300,000 dollars where would you put it..So property tax has to be one part of the equitation..We do have to many parking lots..Until the city and the town can work together on this issue thru consolidation the downtown of the city of Batavia will be what it is ..And that is nothing more than a few bars and restaurants....Example.Why would anyone open a shoe store in downtown Batavia when the town has at least three that i know of plus what Wal Mart ,Kmart ,Target and now because of tax breaks Dicks sells ...The Veterans Drive in the town of Batavia is our new Main Street....Drive down Main Street after dark...it is dead,,Dark street lights and empty buildings..Drive down Veterans Drive after dark and every store is busy with shoppers....The street lights are even brighter..
Downtown parking was
Downtown parking was 'largely' driven by the National Guard. Their inventory of troop transporters had to be cleaned and air-dried every 6 months; the short trip up State Street was very convenient. The initial mall project had included 'plans' for some form of high-density parking garage. The overhead clearance was of insufficient height for most of the Guard's vehicles, so the plan was scrapped. ...Later in the 1970s, the city came up with the idea for 'Pic-a-nic Basket Day.' A local pizza parlor would loan its jumbo balloon fashioned as Yogi Bear to the organizers. Scads of Batavia families would spread out blankets on the pavement and enjoy an al fresco dining experience while members of the mail carriers union performed on spoons and kazoos.
To be honest, in this
To be honest, in this discussion I am a little behind the curve, but I thought I'd make a suggestion. The Mall here in downtown always seems to be the big pink elephant in the room. I have been through there many times especially when walking from the southside to theTVFCU to warm up on cold days. I have seen a few of the stores come an go in there even in my 5 or 6 yrs here. But we have this building underutilized and it has ALOT of parking right?
Why not take Mr. Brudz's idea but apply it to the mall. I dont know who actually owns/rents the spaces but What if things that draw crowds here. Like the Mammoth Sale, or Crossroads Parking lot Sale. There are craft fairs and things like Jackson Square music festivals that could be held indoors. during the fall and winter.
I mean all those empty spaces make no money empty. But what if the farmers market continued all year round in there. How about a community potluck dinner in there once every season (4 times a year) I mean come on it's obviously going to waste and to be honest any traffic in there is gonna benefit all of downtown. Offer a space to a caterer and hold dinners and business meetings. It just seems so obvious.
Just had to add my 2 cents there as I have wondered why we preserve a big dead spot in the middle of Batavia. Look at Save A Lot I remember when that parking lot was empty all the time . Now the areas in front of it are busy from 9 to 5 everyday and getting busier. Sure its pretty empty at night but hey as was said here in earlier posts.......start small.
Anything is better than just sitting around complaining and whining til it becomes so much background noise that no one pays attention anymore.
I don't see anybody here
I don't see anybody here accepting the status quo of failure. I see realistic appraisals of why we are in this situation. I would love to see a vibrant and bustling Batavia downtown. Mark B. and Kyle C. have some great suggestions, You have to find ways to draw people from outside of Batavia and you do that by capitalizing on what we have. We do have much to offer. Then you have to get people to WANT (sorry for the caps) to be here and do business here and live here. Not incentivise them to give it a try. It can happen, but (sorry again, this time for the worn out cliche) we have to think outside the box. Tired out old government-centric solutions are well inside the box, the old dusty box that should be thrown out. What they are doing at Canalside is brilliant and is working, slowly, but heading in the right direction. The Bass Pro idea was totally asinine, I'm glad that was scrapped. There's a lot of government involvement, but with a stated purpose of getting it out of the mix. The city, state, county and NFTA are selling off chunks of land and buildings to private entities who are then building on what Buffalo has that people like. Hockey, history, diversity, ethnic food, Lake Erie, etc. Now if they can find a way to build a new peace bridge (peacefully) before it falls into the river and screws everything up, they will keep having successes. Since I'm on Buffalo, about 30 or so years ago, they stopped traffic on Main Street downtown, put in the subway and thought that would create foot traffic to help downtown retail. Brilliant. worked so well, they are now opening part of it back up for parking and vehicles.
Mark B explained the start
Mark B explained the start small concept better than I did.
Combing those comments with what Tielman said about Jackson Square:
To me, the perfect place to start setting up tent vendors every weekend is the row of parking spaces along Jackson Street.
If the core of what Batavia once was is Jackson Square, then the logical thing is to build density around it, starting with the tent vendor concept.
Forget about the mall. It's dead space.
Though I do kind of like the city's concept of opening up Jackson Street across main up to Alva and putting in a couple of high density buildings there. If that goes through, it makes tent vendors on Jackson make all that much more sense.
Also, let the town of the cultural wasteland of Batavia Towne Plaza. We're talking about building a real downtown with an authentic, real people culture, and that means locally owned businesses tied to and committed to the community.
Entrepreneurs will start businesses where they see opportunities. Open up opportunities and more of them pop up, and do it at density, and people will show up. Give people a reason to show up and they'll show up. They always do. It's human nature, as Tielman explained.