Today's Poll: Should the county defy NYS corrections commission on hiring more jail guards?

It makes a great talking point to say yes, defy them. But as a practical matter, the County is going to either hire more staff or build a new jail.

There was talk a couple of years ago about building a joint jail facility with Orleans County. If Orleans is still interested, maybe time to consider that again.

Or maybe it's time to push back on laws and mandates that do not make sense or do not work logically as they are peanut butter spread across the state. It's all well and good for the cash holders in Albany to issue mandates, but it's another thing to implement efficient effective solutions to problems. There are far simpler rules that should be in place at the state level that would allow the local municipalities to implement the best solutions that make sense and work well for their regions. Where are our County Legislators with a fight for common sense on this issue? Where is their push back to Congressman Collins, Assemblyman Hawley, and Senator Ranzenhofer?

John; I know you and your correction officer union buddies all think this is a great idea, but it's not so much for everyone else. I am personally not convinced that the Commission on Corrections has this power to mandate anyway. This is a huge expense. The legislature seems to rubber stamp whatever the Sheriff wants. I for one am tired of being a serf to the preservation of government special interest jobs.

Dave,
Wrong again. One, I worked for the State, not the County. And we never liked the Commission. Two, it does have the authority and a little research on your part will show that. Personally, I do not know if the 10 are really needed or not. The sheriff did not ask for them, so I would guess they are not.

I also have to guess that since Robert Brown is the candidate of your party for the County Legislature, you and he will make refusing to do this part of his campaign.

The sheriff can not defy the commission requirements for staffing. The Minimum Standards for Local Correctional Facilities are court enforceable and any refusal to comply with their directives can result in a contempt of court charge. The staffing analysis is based on a specific formula and the input from the jail superintendent during a sit down interview with the commission member assigned to the facility. In the case of the jails analysis there obviously was little or no attempt by the representative(s) from the jail to try and lower the high number of new mandated officers.
The sheriff, undersheriff, county manager or jail superintendent failed to make public at the Public Service meeting that they intend to include a new management position of Deputy Jail Superintendent in the 2014 jail budget. This is not a mandated position by the commission and who ever is appointed that position will be paid a salary of $60,000 a year. As a point of reference Mr. Minado is paid a salary of $75,000 a year.
A better poll question might be, “Does a jail the size of Genesee County need two administrators at a collective cost of $135,000 not including benefits?”

Well, in any case our County Attorney has plenty of time to find loopholes for the GCEDC, let's ask that he find some time to examine the legality of an unelected commission forcing their formula on a county jail.

With all due respect Robert.

1) Chris Collins as a congressman has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with matters of State Government. If this were a federal mandate then yes, but it is a STATE mandate.

2) We do not know yet what position Hawley and Ranzenhofer are going to take because this a relatively new event here in our county. Frankly I would rather that they looked into it quietly at first and seek the facts and alternatives rather than shoot from the hip with political banter.

Finally, while this makes great talking points for running for office, there are severe implications for blind defiance, Sanctions, law suits , suspension of law enforcement funding from the state are real possibilities and potentially expensive possibilities if this is not approached with caution.

Blaming the Sherriff, who by the way will not be seeking re-election, blaming anyone local for a commission that was set up in the 70's after the Attica prison riots is also pointless.

I said it when this story broke, and I will say it now 'It is disgusting that an unelected commission can mandate anything to a county municipality without funding that mandate in the first place."

The problem, and solution if any, is going to have be on the STATE Level, NOT the LOCAL and NOT the Federal level. Those opposed to this mandate, and I am one of them, should be writing to and calling Hawley and Ranzenhofer to voice their opposition, and of course to the Governor.

Defiance by the county and/or refusal will NOT stop this and could potentially cost us even millions more over the long term. It all sounds great to say "Hell No we won't do it" but there are realities, and the State holds the upper hand, I am in no way saying do not fight this, I am saying fight it the smart way.

We need less political banter and more community unity to inform our state legislators that all these Mandates from Albany have to stop.

BTW John. whatever Robert Brown decides to make a part of his campaign will and should always be his decision. I support his candidacy because he along with our other 2 city candidates are of their own minds and are all highly intelligent and very capable. None of them take marching orders or talking points from anyone.

Make no mistake: a vote for Robert is just that - a vote for him not the party. We are just lucky to have him as a member and Genesee County will be lucky to have him as a legislator.

Question..How after all these years that genessee county has had this jail,why now is it decided that we need more staff?..How many prisoners on a average day are in that jail?...This should be paid by the state if the state think the county is under staffed...Where is Mr.Hawley our state representative on this issue?.....Did somebody on the county level go to this commission with a complaint about jail under staffing?

I agree with Mark that all who are against this should call, write or e-mail Steve Hawley and Michael Ranzenhofer. I have done so. Think about what Rep. Collins said last week about the number of requests he received against going to war with Syria. Whether you believe it effected his vote or not, at the very least, he recognized the attention.

The thing to remember here is that Genesee County is not alone in this, The same thing happened in Tompkins county recently and a few other counties. It is State Bureaucracy run amuck.

"A Bureaucracy is "a body of non-elective government officials" and/or "an administrative policy-making group." Historically, bureaucracy referred to government administration managed by departments staffed with nonelected officials. In modern parlance, bureaucracy refers to the administrative system governing any large institution."

Keep in mind, the only way to stop it is through legislation

Armed insurrection / coup has worked as well.

Some day your face is going to be on a Tee Shirt Dave, sort of a local 'Che' LOL

That is a fantastic question Ron!

A corollary non-poll question might be "What is Genesee County doing wrong?"

The CoC provides an abundance of statistics on their website:

http://www.doccs.ny.gov/Research/annotate.asp#pop

(Jump to the Statistical Reports on Inmate/Offender Population)

There are a few alarming trends in the data: Upstate Other (which includes Genesee County) new court commitments rose from 2008 through 2012 and Upstate Other new court female commitments rose from 2008 to 2012 while new court commitments for the remaining 3 areas of the state all decreased from 2008 to 2012.

While the Genesee County specific statistics are not earth shattering, they are not going in the right direction:

2006 New Court Commitments - 88 (81 male, 7 female)
2008 New Court Commitments - 88 (80 male, 8 female)
2012 New Court Commitments - 101 (88 male, 13 female)

More eye popping is the 15% reduction in the statewide crime rate and the 71% reduction in the statewide number of drug offenders over the last 10 years which is leading to the CLOSING of 4 prisons in 2014!

http://www.doccs.ny.gov/PressRel/2013/Prison_Closure_Announcement.html

So while other areas of the state are successfully reducing crime and incarcerating fewer individuals, Genesee County needs to hire more guards and/or build a new prison/jail? That despite a significant City of Batavia police force, and overlapping Genesee County Sheriff's Department, and a State Trooper's Barracks all within walking distance of each other (yes, I can walk to them all)! Are we suddenly more effective at catching and convicting perpetrators than anywhere else in the state?

Maybe what we should be doing is looking at the amount of money we are spending on law enforcement and figuring out how to spend a portion of it more effectively on crime prevention. Maybe we can figure out a way to provide the right level of law enforcement and prison/jail security without breaking the bank. Maybe if we didn't turn around and hire 10 career government employees every time someone in Albany sneezes we could actually get ahead of the curve. Maybe we could actually look at what others are doing to succeed and leverage their processes.

The model we've been following in Genesee County is obviously not working. We are all feeling it. We need to make some adjustments...and soon!

Ron,
The answer to your question is NO, we do not need a Deputy Jail Superintendent. We have a Chief Jail Deputy and an Undersheriff to assist Mr. Minardo if he needs it.

My initial point, Mark, was that our elected local representatives (i.e., our County Legislators) should be calling/writing our state representatives (my mistake for including Congressman Collins in the mix) and publishing their intended course of action. Actually, I just asked a question - where are their statements and how are they addressing the folks who can affect the state laws/mandates? There's no political banter in that and there's no cause for quiet investigation - open communications on how issues are getting addressed is exactly what we should expect from our representatives. The facts are the County has been mandated to do something and our elected local representatives are going to be asked to fund the solution. If someone is digging deeper into the details of the mandate, great let's hear about it. If someone is requesting a clarification on the mandate, great let's hear about it. We can all write to voice our objections, that's a given. But what I expect from my representatives is just that - representation. They were elected to do a number of things, one of them being to voice the concerns of the community they represent. Community unity is not going to waver on this issue. Proactive action from our elected officials is an open question until we see it.

Robert, Prison statistics and County Jail statistics are TWO DISTINCTLY DIFFERENT things. A county jail IS NOT A PRISON, it is a jail

1. County Jail commitments are less than 1 year duration and also include those awaiting trial and denied bail

2. State commitments are for convicted Felons sentenced for more than 1 year, and have diminished greatly because there are far less drug convictions under mandated guidelines. The 4 closing facilities are rather small population facilities and it makes good sense that they should close as opposed to just downsizing all Prisons.

There is nothing alarming about our counties statistics, and we Are NOT over flowing with law enforcement. The State police barracks is a TROOP headquarters, one platoon is assigned to Genesee County and that equates to about 9 troopers covering 457 square miles, 24/7 who supplement the sheriffs patrol, including any special details that may arise, that works out to 2-3 troopers a shift, (Sometimes only 1)

The Sherriff's department has 39 members covering the same 457 square miles and includes investigators and administrative deputies, there is usually only 1 Sgt and 3-4 deputies patrolling the county (All 457 Sq Miles) on any given shift. That is actually spread a little thin.

With regard to the city police, the coverage is just about right based on population, eliminating the city police would require increasing the Sherriff's department personnel.

I pulled the numbers a few months ago, the amount of law enforcement per thousand in Genesee county is actually slightly below average. Just because you see a trooper barracks or trooper cars at lucn time at sportos DOES NOT mean they are all assigned here, In fact, many f those trooper cars are from the Thruway patrol which is separate from Troop A and actually paid for by the Thruway authority and Troopers from other districts here for training and administrative purposes.

You are making an Apples and Oranges argument. The issue is and remains State Mandate, and again, we are NOT the only county that the commission is mandating this too, it is NOT a specific Genesee county issue rather a much larger issue state wide.

It is a perfect example of a commission formed in 1972 as a response to the Attica Prison Riots that has outlived it's usefulness and the unintended consequences of big government. Blaming local law enforcement in anyway whether for it's size or practice is ludicrous and misguided

There is much that we agree on Robert, I do not see however, any local dropping of the ball in anyway. I do see this as part of a much larger, much more egregious problem, and that is State Mandate.

For the record, Hawley and Ranz have both been openly and vocally fighting against state Mandate since they have been in office.

And what indication do you have that our county legislators are not calling and complaining to our state representatives?

oops i voted wrong! voted no instead of yes....arent we supposed to be cutting back on costs and services?????

wheres the like button??? likes daves reply up there ^

I didn't say anyone dropped the ball. Again, I am simply asking what course of action is taking place? We have no indication that any communication has occurred or is ongoing.

I agree that mandates are a HUGE problem. Openly vocal is a good thing. Proposed legislation better. Enacted legislation best.

Understood, as this issue has just come to light in the last few days, I sure that we will be finding out soon as this unfolds.

Mark,
The County Jail also holds Parole violators until and if, they are returned to State prison.

Good point John, I forgot about those

For The Record, I don't like cut and paste so much But

"The growth in the number of people held in jail has not been caused by an increase in crime, as index crime reports decreased by 30 percent in the last decade in upstate and suburban New York overall. It has also not been caused by an increase in the base population, which increased by just 2.6 percent over this same ten year time span.

<strong>One major factor in new jail construction has been the State Commission of Corrections, a state agency appointed by the governor that has been directly responsible for the size and scale of new jail construction in New York State. Although providing no financial assistance to counties building new jails, the SCOC has mandated the size and timeline of their construction and dealt financial penalties to counties who have chosen to pursue alternatives to expansion instead or do not otherwise comply. </strong>

County legislators across the state have voiced frustration with the Commission, claiming that these are unfunded mandates and that the agency is acting outside the scope of its regulatory authority. They maintain that the agency would better serve the counties by examining why jail populations are increasing and act to address those factors instead. <strong>Some of these factors include: arrest policies that cause more people to spend time in jail for low-level offenses, a rising number of people being housed in jail who are mentally ill, system inefficiencies that make it difficult for people to move rapidly through the justice system, local jails being used to hold people detained by the Department of Homeland Security’s Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the U.S. Marshal Service, and a lack of coordination between county and state corrections officials that leaves many people who have been sentenced to prison sitting in local jails.</strong>"

Source:
From http://ccrjustice.org/files/Repot_ImpactsOfJailExpansionInNYS.pdf

"County legislators across the state have voiced frustration with the Commission, claiming that these are unfunded mandates and that the agency is acting outside the scope of its regulatory authority. They maintain that the agency would better serve the counties by examining why jail populations are increasing and act to address those factors instead."

So in other words..What Bob said.

Our County Legislature? (From The Batavian, yesterday)
At the end of the discussion, legislators concluded there is no avoiding the expense of hiring 10 more corrections officers.

"It's not something we can bury our head on," Legislator Ray CIanfrini said. "We've got to do it and it's our job to figure out how to do it."

Ha and after you're done scaring children with it, you can put it on a scarecrow and keep every critter out of your garden.

Dave, Selected reading, also from that post

" the SCOC has mandated the size and timeline of their construction and dealt financial penalties to counties who have chosen to pursue alternatives to expansion instead or do not otherwise comply."

It is beyond the county legislature ad that is my point, Other counties have fought it and it cost them more in the long run, IT IS A MATTER THAT NEEDS BE SETTLED ON THE STATE LEVEL.....

I can't wait to see responses to Howard's request, that will be telling

I am interested in the responses as well, Mark. I agree that it needs to be changed at the state level, but that's no excuse to roll over like this.

You can give the legislators and sheriff a pass if you want.
I shall not.

How about the County Attorney and the State Attorney General?

Dave,
Why is the opinion of the DA on the size or staffing of a jail of importance? Personally, I don't want prosecution of crime based on the size of a jail or the size of its staff.

What is your opinion of privatization or contracting out the jail?

A. 1 of the 9 legislators made the statement.

B. What was the context in which that statement was made?

C. Even with the statement, Did he call Hawley or Ranz? We do not know

D. The Sherriff was simply the messenger, he never made a request for the Guards or a new jail, he simply reported the mandate to the legislature as he was required to. It was not in his proposed budget, so you can conclude that he is not exactly in agreement. Even if he is opposed, it is not his place beyond that of any other citizen to protest it.

I am all for anger and protest, just that they are directed appropriately. My problem was it seemed that the immediate response was against our local legislators and the Sherriff, I believe inappropriately so.

Just a point to consider, if other counties have fought similar mandates and lost and subsequently seen additional financial burden, nothing our legislature can do at this point would effect a different outcome. And honestly, even if Ranz and Hawley are able to make a ruckus over this, it is doubtful that anything can be done in time without the support of the majority of the State senate and legislature, and remember, the majority of both are composed of downstate liberals.

Ergo, his statement while unfortunate, may be accurate, as far as him complaining to state representatives, we do not know if he did or did not.

I guess my prime point here as we are too quick to attack our local guys before all the FACTS are in.

I said the County Attorney John, not the District Attorney. The County Attorney is employed by the legislature to advise them on legal matters.

A little research on your part would have shown you that........(sound familiar?)

I disagree, if Howard had not reported this, they would have hired the new personnel without a peep. We'd probably be talking about a palatial new jail soon as well. I still don't believe the Commission's mandate is legally sound, but much like the illegality of IDA's/ EDC's since they've been able to get away with it, I suppose it'll happen. I give no breaks. Besides, the jail didn't all of a sudden become sub-standard, someone knew about this, but didn't prepare to fight it beforehand. See the comment by Mr. Greer above.

What I enjoy is that this commission can make their decree, and there are no other means to protest by the county. Even if everyone comes out in unison and stands around gaffa-ing at the cost, to not do it will have consequences that will cost even more.

So once again, an agency far away with little to no contact, or practical understanding of how things work, has an over all say in what happens in our county. Top - down government at its best.

What I want to hear from elected officials is how they prevent something like this happening in the future. Being angry is cute and all for the cameras, but once those are gone, all that's left is a broken system, penny-less residents and 10 new positions with healthcare and pension benefits.

But we're safer, right? ;-/

Phil,
What does the Board of Education do when this happens? Do you know if the BOE has ever just refused to obey a staffing or curriculum mandate? If yes, did they succeed?

Maybe the Legislature can learn from the BOE.

Mr. Greer is 80% accurate

His statement "In the case of the jails analysis there obviously was little or no attempt by the representative from the jail to try and lower the high number of new mandated officers." Is an assumption NOT a fact. Additionally, there is no way they could have been hired without a peep as the budget is public record and must be approved by the legislature. Additionally, no one knows what was said in that consultation and the last few years history with other counties is counter indicative that, that is what happened.

His statement "The sheriff can not defy the commission requirements for staffing. The Minimum Standards for Local Correctional Facilities are court enforceable and any refusal to comply with their directives can result in a contempt of court charge." Is a FACT NOT an assumption, and a contempt of court charge against the county could become very costly and would likely end in the new officers being hired anyway.

His statement about the salaries is not totally a fact either. This also would have to clear the legislature and would have to become part of the budget however, a very separate issue that I believe we can all be in agreement with is that position is not necessary. I do commend Ron for pointing this out as in the end the issue would have become confused with the mandate.

Again wanting to fight back, and being vocal while maybe prudent, is likely to have little effect unless the rules of the game are changed.

More accurate would be Phil's take, it is top down style government at it's worst.

I want to be clear Dave, I am not debating the wrongness of this, and I am not saying that we should just roll over, I am just saying that if you are looking for blame, the Sherriff's office and county legislature are not the responsible parties at all. There are some things I am questioning about the Sherriff's office, like the need for and assistant superintendent, and there are plenty of things that the County legislature does that give me pause. That said, adding 10 new officers at $100,000 is NOT something that would have slipped through without a peep, That is about $17per man, woman and child in the county, no way it would a snuck it's way through unnoticed.

No John we have not.

We have advocated against things, and have had minor victories, but no. If you defy a mandate there is a consequence that is ten times worst than the mandate itself.

It's plain ridiculous.

I hear everyone's frustration on this, but these are one of those poor unfortunate situations where the state is forcing the hand of the municipality, and their only recourse is to comply, and try to legislate it out.

The problem I see here is, isn't Maha, although there are some administrative choices that I question as well, Mark, but with an antiquated system that we blindly follow without challenge.

The county legislative's job is now to formally protest, while still complying, and use their state representatives to advocate against this. That is what I'm waiting to see happen. If they do, good, but if not, that will be the failure.

I wasn't quite clear I guess. I meant that the legislators would have just put the money for the 10 positions (or is it 11?) into the budget and then it would be part of the entire budget discussion. That's a lack of transparency. You're right, Mark eventually it had to become public knowledge, but now it's out there at the outset. The sheriff & or the legislature was obviously planning to slide the new administrator position into the mix with the other positions so it wouldn't attract attention, you don't find that troubling?

No, our so-called leaders (I don't call them that it's just vernacular) always want to get through each year with as little confrontation and questioning as possible. Hardly leadership and certainly not innovation. It's time for some changes, and if anyone disagrees, I ask you "How's it working out so far?"

Phil we pretty much concur. My beef was how fast everyone seemed to jump to blame the locals. This is clearly something beyond them. Every resident of the county should be writing state Reps by now...

I think the Administrator thing was coincidental actually, That I totally agree with you that it isn't needed and should have had more discussion, I had been hearing rumblings about that for months though, I don't think they are related, but I understand how others might think otherwise.

I understand where everyone is coming from. You want to see something more at the local level than just "Well that sucks, but OK." Unfortunately there are times when that is where you're at, but by no means should that be the end of the discussion.

Like I said, we'll see how they respond. If it's nothing, than I think everyone is justified to get angry, but if they follow the protocols to go after it, while still making sure they are legal, then I'm fine.

In the broader scheme of things Phil, you said something that many just do not understand,

"I hear everyone's frustration on this, but these are one of those poor unfortunate situations where the state is forcing the hand of the municipality, and their only recourse is to comply, and try to legislate it out."

That doesn't mean of course that we should roll over I agree, but I am not certain that many truly understand the maze that the State Bureaucracy really is.

There is something in the NY State legal system called an Article 78 proceeding. I believe it is designed for a person to appeal a decision by a state agency. Now, I'm just a "jailhouse lawyer", but there's a great question for the County Attorney.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/a/article-78-proceeding/

edit: The question being: Can the County bring one of these against the Commission?

No Mark they do not, because they have brains. :-) It's only those absent of them that write the system, my friend.

Schmucks like me spend too much time pounding their heads against the wall to understand it, only to then look stupid when someone asks "Why is like that?"

"Uhhhh....Cause it's broke."

:-)

I am only an armchair Lawyer Dave but

1. Article 78 can not be used until such time as the perceived wrongful action has been implemented

2. I am pretty sure that it only applies to individuals or businesses not municipalities

3. I believe that the wrongful decision has to have been made before the court system and not outside of it.

I may be wrong but that is the way I read it, It is however an interesting question

That is a great question, Dave.

I would be very interested to see if that comes up.

I think has to be a final decision, not necessarily implemented, if it's a mandate, Mark then to me that means it is a final decision. If it's not then why is the legislature & sheriff acquiescing? The question is can a county bring the proceeding or can a representative do it on behalf?

The NYS corrections commission has not given any reason as to why now...We have had this jail for years and the staffing was fine...Why now are they making this mandate to Genesse County an issue...

Ladies and Gentlemen, our Betters have decided for us what we should have. NYC and Downstate politicians have made the decision for us.

As long as we continue to bear the political burden of Downstate, we will continue to suffer and pay their tribute. There is only one answer: Divorce Downstate.

FREE NY!!!