I couldn't agree more, Jeff! Police Officers, Fire Fighters, City/County Clerks, etc. If we're going to be mandating it, then all public employees should have to. If not, then no.
We pay their salaries. They need to be held accountable. New York State spends more money per student in the nation, yet we rank #38 in graduating seniors per the Governor. What is wrong with this picture??
We pay only a portion of their salaries by virtue of our taxes, in the same way we pay a portion of most peoples salaries in our purchases. When I get work done at a mechanic, I pay his salary by virtue of the final bill. Am I then entitled to see his job evaluation? When I pay my Doctor after a visit, the proceeds go towards his compensation, am I then entitled to see his job evaluation? Waitress, bank clerk, garbage collector, insurance agent, etc.. Whose job evaluation am I NOT entitled to? If there is a problem with the current system whereas teachers are underperforming then an overhaul in the system would be in order. Making their job evaluations public only creates a gossip driven, class warfare, lynch mob mentality.
Phil,
You have a case, up to a point. If you are sending your kid to school and have the chance to pick between two or three teachers for the same subject, I'd like to know which one has a high pass rate and which one (if any) has a very poor pass rate. I think most parents would like that information.
I think what is made public is a more important issue.
The Governor is misleading in those comments. Actually, the January 12, 2012 Education Week’s “Quality Counts” report ranked New York schools third in the nation after studying education policy efforts, student outcomes, standards, assessments, and accountability. New York met or exceeded the national average for each of the six measurable education indicators.
The “Quality Counts” results are not atypical. A CNBC report recently ranked New York “tops” in the nation based substantially on the state’s educated workforce and our education system. And the prestigious Intel Science Talent Search just announced that of the 300 semi-finalists in this year’s high school science competition, once again more than 100 of them are from New York.
The 2012 8th Annual AP Report to the Nation ranks New York second in the number of graduates taking at least one Advance Placement exam and the number scoring 3 or higher on their AP tests.
New York is a big state and no isolated statistic can accurately depict the strengths or the challenges in this state’s very varied schools. When we talk about public schools, let’s all try to provide the most accurate accounting.
And as far as that goes, parents will want to get their students in classes of teachers ranked the best. That will not be able to logistically happen. And the problem with these evaluations is that sometimes you have administrators evaulating teachers when they themselves haven't taught as long as that teacher, do not know the subject matter or just plain don't like them on a personal level. Without unions and seniority, good seasoned teachers will be let go and the evaluations are unfair. Some teachers may even be evalutated on students who don't show up to school, but show up for the exam.
Yet antoher example. A teacher has three students out of school, on tutoring for various reasons. The teacher sends them work and the tutor sends it back. The class room experience I would have given them does not happen, the tutor's is the teacher experience. Yet, starting next year that teacher will be evaluated on those 3 tutored students' regents exam grades. There are SO MANY factors at work in a child's education BESIDES teachers. Parents, socioeconomic status, etc. So my livelihood will be directly connected to how one parents and how that child was raised from birth, essentially.
Therefore, the Governor's comments will be like a teacher's evaluation. Without seeing all the factors and statistics it will look one way, but really be another.
How would a teacher evaluation be structured? Based solely on kids passing a standardized test? What about the kids that do poorly because their home life is a wreck and know one at home helps that child with homework or they go without meals. So the teacher would be held responsible for that? Do we give extra points to the teacher that gives a winter coat to one of the kids because they walked to school that morning in December with no coat.
Take Rochester City Schools for example. Their graduation rate is below 48%. 2 miles away in Brighton their graduation rate is over 95%. You really think there are that many poor teachers in Rochester City Schools? The main problem is home life, environment, work ethic etc.
To solely base test scores to evaluate a Teacher is wrong. There are two many outside factors that come into play.
If this were to come to pass, I wonder how many " marginal" teachers would dumb down there course and pass the kids who are lazy,or never show up or do any of the work or just incapable of getting the material. What about the kids themselves? Why should a teacher be punished for a kid who just isn't interested and doesn't want to be in school? I realize that this is a simplistic view but as stated in other post here the vaiables for evaluating whether a teacher is good or bad are multifaceted. Education is not a product of combining raw materials and pruducing a product like something off an assembly line. And what about the parents? When is the state or whomever, going to evauate them? I would guess that a large percentage of the kids not making it have parent or parents that fail miserably in that job. When are they going to be held accountable?
That's a very good question!. I and I would imagine a boat load of school superintendents would really like to know the answer to. This is the down side of all unions not just teachers unions..
The one comment that always bothers me is the "NY spends blah blah blah per student." Take a look at your tax packet the next time it comes out and see why it is so high. Some special need students that are shipped off to a school to meet their needs might cost 150,000 or more. Those types of things bring the average way up. Not to mention all the special need students that are in the school day to day - their cost is much more than that of a "regular" student. Other states don't have the same laws and policies on these types of students. So their average is much lower...but that doesn't make the point of "NY spends so much on students and..." statements as powerful.
The curriculum is already down to a level that is absurd. State tests are graded on a scaled score so that if you get a 38% on the Algebra regents you get a scaled 65%. Then you go to Geometry. Now you "passed" Algebra and so you should pass Geometry right...but the scale isn't the same on the Geometry exam and guess what...a great deal of success in Geometry is being able to perform Algebra...which you can do at a 38% success rate.
If anyone truly wants to fix the problem it is a rather simple one. If you can't pass 1st grade math...you don't go on to 2nd grade math. If you can't read at a 2nd grade level...you don't go on to 3rd grade reading. Right now that doesn't happen. Many schools kids can't fail a grade no matter what, or if they pass the majority of their classes they move on to the next grade. That shouldn't happen. If you aren't ready to move on you don't move on. If you are 16 and in 2nd grade math...sorry...pass it and you can move on. That one simple thing would solve the problems that so many kids have - lacking the basic skills to succeed in the classes they are sitting in.
John, that's a crock. If we're going to go on that method of logic, then I only want officers who have a high arrest success rate, and a fire fighter who only has a successful out rate and so on and so on. I think it's just silly, but if you're going to do it then all public employees should be subjected.
You can't isolate one group and say it's because it's public money if you're not going to hold everyone to the same standard.
While I strongly believe in teacher evaluations, I strongly disagree with making them public. The comparison was made with a mechcanic, yes, if a mechanic shop does a poor job I wouldn't go thre, but if the owner of the shop has an employee in that shop that screws up, not my business so long as the shop owner makes it right. His evaluaion of his employee is between him and the employee, the results of the service p[rovide are between me and the shop owner/manager.
Also brought up was seniority, there lies the issue, Superintendants need to base employment on merit, NO seniority, my problem is more with the Teachers unions, I am strongly against seniority based systems of any kind, you should only be guaranteedainaining your job or promotion based on performance, never on seniority.
In the end, performance records should always be kept between Employer and employee, we as tax payers employ the school system, not the teacher, so we should hold the superintendant to task, and he/she in turn should hold the tachr to task. If the Super wants the keep his/her job, I assure under a system as I suggest, only the teachers that perform will hold thier job under that5 super
Rich,
What different kids?
Same subject, same school, over a period of years. One teacher has a consistently better pass rate than the other. Don't I have a right to know which one does a better job?
I can see not using just one year as a snap shot, but over a period of time we should be able to see a pattern.
Don't you want your kid to have the better teacher?
A mechanic is working in a free market. A teacher is working in a monopoly.
If you don't like the way your car repair shop does things, you can go to another shop. If you don't like the education your child is getting (with the difficult exception of private schools) you're stuck.
Also, if your mechanic screws up your car, you can sue; and while your car being screwed up might be a minor set back, one bad teacher can spoil an entire life.
The government should be transparent and open about everything it does.
If we apply the logic of the free market vs. the private sector then all public employees are working within a monopoly. We had better start publicizing the job evaluations of NYS bridge engineers. We can hardly select alternative engineers to design and inspect our bridges in New York State and one bad bridge can ruin many lives. We had better start publicizing the job evaluations of driver licensing evaluators, we can't select alternative evaluators and one bad driver can ruin many lives. The examples could go on and on but the fact is teachers have always been an easy target. Yeah, I get that they enjoy good pay, good benefits, great job security and a lot of time off, but that still does not justify them being singled out among thousands of public occupations for public scrutiny and speculation.
Like Phil said, either public evaluations for all or public evaluations for none.
So what most of you are saying is that teachers have the sole responsibility of making sure your kids pass? Home situation has no role in that? I beg to differ. I jump at the chance to differ on that. Teachers have a daunting task these days dealing with kids whose parents take so little involvement in their education, that many of them probably function at a 7th grade level. Not to mention teachers have little to no way to discipline students.
Teachers have no control over whether mommy did crack or drank when she was pregnant. That has a factor on how the fetus develops, thus effects how a child develops and the education they receive.
The passing standards have been lowered because in 2001 NYS decided to make every student pass regents. I graduated right before that with the regents when it was an option. Not every student is suited to pass the regents.
There are some bad teachers out there, but to post every evaluation they receive borders on lunacy. They have enough garbage to deal with. How about people that don't know how to be teachers because they don't have the license to do so, stay out of it and let the people that have the education and paperwork to prove it do their jobs. They might do a better job if people get off their backs.
I do agree with Phil on this. If you want to see teacher evals then everyone who works any job should have theirs publicly posted.
If we were going to apply logic, then we wouldn't mention other jobs at all, whether public or private, since it's entirely irrelevant to the question at hand.
Either there is a case for keeping teacher evaluations public or making them secret. The argument stands or falls on its own merits, logically speaking.
I'll never vote for giving the government more secrets. Knowledge and openness always produces better government.
Jeff,
I don't think anyone said they were against all evaluations being public. I am surprised how many people don't want parents to know how good or bad a teacher is. Isn't this for the kids?
Nathan,
Since teachers do not have a peer review or professional disciplinary board as some professions, how does a parent know if the teacher is any good or just there because they can not be removed?
John, I'm against it. How do you filter the results of a job performance evaluation to parents without making it public? This is not about transparency in government, it's about privacy in the employer/employee relationship regardless of whether it pertains to the private or public sector. There is an element of trust on both sides. We as taxpayers have to trust the system to address bad teachers without trying them in the court of public opinion. If that system isn't working, adjust the protocol, don't throw them to wolves of public scrutiny. There also has to be a level of trust between the teacher and the employer that matters of personnel and performance are kept within the confines of the workplace and not the public square. Eroding that trust exposes a lot of GOOD teachers to misguided public analysis.
Where are you getting the impression that teachers can not be removed? Teachers get laid off or fired all the time. They don't make that public information either because It isn't needed information. The only time the public hears about it is when there is a sex scandal involved.
Parent teacher conferences are a good way to start. Parents can meet with teachers prior to the class starting and discuss what the curriculum involves. They have to have lesson plans approved by the schools, it isn't just make stuff up and see what happens.
If your student is struggling in school there are plenty of ways to find out if a teacher is any good at being a teacher such as a phone call to the school and talk to the teacher and see how your child behaves in class, and if the homework is being done correctly and see what suggestions are offered in order to help the child succeed in school.
Jeff,
Teachers get fired all the time? You are joking, right?
When as the last time you know of a teacher being fired for not being good at the job anymore? And other than Jeff, does anyone else know of a teacher fired for not being a good teacher?
By the way, being laid off just means you were at the bottom of the seniority list since merit is not allowed to be considered.
But you have a point. Tenure has to be ended, peer review and maybe a professional review board instituted.
Lets assume that the average number of hours spent in school is 40 hours.
For every hour in school, most students should be spending 2 hours outside of class reviewing and doing homework MINIMUM. 80 hours. How many actually do that?
How much time is wasted on video games, facebook, texting, and playing stupid games on phones instead of school work, not to mention girls in high school shouldn't be allowed to have camera phones for obvious reasons....
So we are invested 120 hours so far. That leaves 48 hours a week for sleeping. Not too practical.
Lets assume the the ratio is then 1:1 total is 80 hours a week between school and study time. How many do that? Not many... Time being wasted. Teachers are not responsible for what students don't do out of class.
168 hours a week, and your child in school for 40 of those hours. Parents are responsible for 128 hours a week. hmmm Priorities of those responsible need to be established before pointing the finger and playing the blame game. Our country isn't doing good at the moment because no one wants to accept that mistakes were made, we need to fix them. It is always at the fault of others.
All tenure does it make it harder to fire someone, doesn't make them untouchable. Teachers get audited all the time by administration and supers. They are always on the chopping block.
Nathan,
Shifting this to the kids or parents is a neat trick, but does not address the issue of parents being allowed to know if the teacher is any good.
You might be a great parent, you do everything right and your kid is highly motivated to learn. But if the teacher can not teach, do you have a right as a parent to know?
That's what this is about, your right to know if the person teaching your child can do the job.
You do not think parents have that right, I do.
You do have the right to know, I don't think you have the right to see every teachers job evaluation. Ask any new teacher how hard it is to get tenure right now.
And if a public opinion pole is given to teachers that is just irrelevant information. That is about as useful as movie critics. Braveheart was a great movie, but not everyone thinks so.
There are so many factors that go into how a child learns that it isn't fair to a teacher to post that and assume that if 5 kids didn't pass that year its because the teacher isn't doing their job.
As a parent if you are concerned you can speak to schools and sort out the details. Would you want your evaluation to be posted so everyone sees every comment?
And don't mistake me, There are some really HORRIBLE teachers out there, but why punish them all because of a few. That is going to make people not go into the profession, or leave the profession and go into something else. Such as healthcare as I decided to do.
Nathan,
You say we have the right to know. Are you saying a parent can go in and see the audit or evaluation? And if that evaluation said the teacher can not do the job, but is still there because of tenure, do you have the right to demand your child's placement with a teacher who can?
Mark Brudz has it right. Evaluations should be between the employee and the employer. It needs to be up to school administration to review and deal with evaluation results not the public at large. And if the public doesn't like the results they get from the school they evaluate and deal with school administration. Really, this should be no different than how we deal with employees of the county clerk's office or highway department or any other gov't department.
Howard, it isn't arguing against transparency. It is about putting public pressure where it belongs. Public scrutiny is properly put on school administration, not on the rank and file employees of the school. The public should not be micromanaging the school. We have paid, supposedly professionally trained, administrators to do that job correctly. If we have to micro-manage their essential functions then why have them around? We should be monitoring the admin, not the rank and file.
if you want to observe a class and not be disruptful I am sure any teacher would let you come in and visit for the day. They would have to get it cleared by the admin first.
How does looking at someones evaluation tell you that they are a good teacher. maybe that teacher is awesome and doesn't get along with the boss.
** and Howard
If you think that those other factors don't play a major role in education you really should do more research on it.
Different cognitive levels of students plays a major role.
Every student has a different learning style, visual, kinesthetic, artistic, auditory so its not always possible to customize every lesson plan to every student.
Accountable is way different than putting everything out in the open. People make mistakes and if they are corrected on their eval, then that shouldn't be public knowledge because if that wasn't a big mistake or something they want the teacher to implement then that could go on there. That isn't the publics business.
The government is so not transparent in so many levels why make teachers the brunt of the BS. They deal with plenty of it from parents and admin as it is. It would be a hindrance to the learning process.
I have listed plenty of ways to figure out how teachers are with out posting it on a public forum. Yes they take a little extra effort on the parents part, but most teachers actually appreciate parents being concerned for their childs education.
Believe it or not most teachers dont rack up $70k worth of student loans to make $30 to 35k a year to start if they can even get a job for how good the money is. Most get into teacher because they want to, and if they eventually make decent money for dealing with all the "stuff" they do now, more power to them.
Teaching is one of the hardest jobs you can get into due to many factors, and I feel that no matter what anyone says on here, it would be a huge mistake to post their evaluations.
"That's what this is about, your right to know if the person teaching your child can do the job.
You do not think parents have that right, I do."
Take this matter up with the Board of Education in NYS for giving them the license. They have to pass student teaching which is pretty much a peer review because you have to be passed by the teacher you shadow and teach for. The College has to approve of your grades, you have to take all the electives that make you oh so well rounded, after you get your paper that says you are done with school, you then have to go back and get your masters.
Ultimately NYS are the ones who determine who is fit to be a teacher. They have set criteria that they go by. If you meet that you can teach.
If you child is putting in the work, and parents do their job, and the teacher is doing their job. There shouldn't be a problem. If there is you contact the teacher and discuss the problem with them.
Good response, when will the state implement parent evaluations. Lets make those public too. It might help me decide where I should live so my grandkids dont have to play with rif-raf families with zero appreciation of education and no accountability. The people kids hang around is a huge factor in their overall sucess and attitude about school.
Nathan wrote, "Different cognitive levels of students plays a major role."
Yes, but teachers aren't evaluated on on how they perform in respect to individual students. That's why "cognitive levels" are irrelevant to grading teachers. They all deal with some students who excel and some who don't. They all have the same equal opportunity to ensure good students continue to excel and poor students have a chance to improve. Any fair evaluation looks at the spectrum of student performance, which totally negates any argument about "cognitive level."
If teachers were paid by merit, free to negotiate their own individual salary, rather than by group contract, then public evaluations would diminish in importance. In the absence of free market controls, the public has a right to know how their teachers are performing.
Posting their evaluation won't give you that information.
Cognitive roles plays a HUGE role in education. Inclusion of students who can't learn or don't want to learn disrupts from those that are there to learn. Or the classes have to be dumbed down somewhat to accommodate them. And yes that happens to all teachers. That doesn't negate anything.
The point of this whole thing is someone has a hair in the butt about teachers. And this is just another chance to take a jab at them. Obviously people haven't ready more than 1/3 of what I wrote. If you want to know if a teacher is a good teacher take and active role in your childs education. Bottom line.
"Arguing against transparency is like arguing against accountability and excellence." I don't perceive that anyone is arguing against transparency of the process, it is transparency of the individual results that is bothersome. Again, we are singling out teachers as the only public servants who need to be put on display for public analysis. I don't see how that solves the problem, it just creates a gossip fest. If we are on the other hand talking about putting out every public employees personal job evaluation results then you may have an argument based on logical consistency. We then would have to address two new problems. 1. How would the quality of individual applying for public sector work be affected when they knew going in that unlike any other private sector position, their job performance would be on public display? 2. In order to make all this information public, an abundance of man hours, costly process, and checks and balances would have to first be implemented to ensure that the correct information was released. Last time I checked, New York did not have scads of discretionary money laying around to be applied to the pursuit of an endeavor that would only have theoretical success at best.
Nathan, one thing good teachers do is effectively deal with students who "who can't learn or don't want to learn."
Your line of argument would lead to only one conclusion: that teachers shouldn't be evaluated at all. Who cares if they're good or bad teachers, because who can teach these kids today anyway? That's essentially what you're saying. If it's kids and the parents who are the problem, why should their be any accountability, public or not -- heck, superintendents shouldn't even be allowed discipline poor teacher performance, after all the damn kids don't want to learn anyway, so who cares if a teacher is good or bad. Heck, they're just there to babysit anyway.
Now, if you believe that there are many, many teachers who are good, and some who are bad, shouldn't there be a formal process -- especially in a unionized situation -- to evaluate the good from the bad?
Your solution of taking an active role doesn't apply to me and the majority of taxpayers. I have no children in school. Taxpayers who have children who have graduated, or never had children, don't have children in school. But how the children in our community are educated effects us all, that's the very theory behind making all taxpayers support education. Now, if you don't think teacher performance is any of my business, then stop taking money from me to pay for schools.
It's nothing against teachers -- it's against a bureaucratic system without checks and balances that needs fixed. Schools cost too much money, produce less than satisfactory results, but we're all supposed to remain in the dark about how our money is being spent. Regardless of what else is going on in society, schools are charged with educating children, and there is no excuse for not getting that done.
Public accountability provides some third-party oversight to the process.
We could go round and round all day but I don't have the desire to.
Teachers are accountable, they are put to task. Their evaluations don't need to be public.
Standardized tests are the only thing that proves if a student learns right? Wrong. Goes back to my learning styles. Some students don't do well regardless of who is teaching.
You can't just assume that teachers are there to babysit because I think parents need to be responsible. And to take out that parents are responsible is idiotic.
"The teacher’s job description revolves around the power to change the world by providing great education, and moulding the kids to become great human beings. The teachers have to work closely with the parents and coordinate with them regarding their child. If they spot any behavioural disabilities in a child, they have to contact the parents and inform them. The teacher’s jobs are to teach the students to become successful in life and are also responsible for the overall development of the child. The job of the teacher is to guide the students towards his/her interest and also help in in development in the field of interest by working with the coordination of the parents.Teachers are the ones who mould the children into what they will become someday." taken from... http://newjobdescriptions.com/teacher-job-description.htm
you are really jumping to come up with something to try and take down my argument saying that they are just baby sitters and i don't think they should be responsible.
However, what I have pointed out is a VERY LARGE portion of why students don't do well for many reasons. You seem to not grasp that fact.
So what criteria make a teacher a good teacher?
What would the public want to know?
Why should the public see their evaluations?
What are the penalties for not meeting the criteria?
Who decides what that criteria is?
If standardized testing is a measure, then the argument that standardized testing isn't fair to students that can't keep up, how does that play into it? However NYS supreme court ruled that this was not a good indicator of success in August of 2011.
If you don't have kids, then you don't need to read specifically on what teacher does what. If you are concerned about what your money does, then maybe a school wide assessment should be done as the scientific data would have better results to determine if a school system is effective rather than an individual basis.
Nathan,
Maybe you can tell us how poor teachers are held accountable? And if a teacher is found to be deficient, what happens?
Can you tell us where a teacher was let go for being a poor teacher?
Can anyone walk us through the process of how simply making individual teacher job evaluations public solves the problem of poor performing teachers and how it empowers parents to have more control over their child's education? Just give us a brief outline of how publicizing teachers evaluations = better student success, higher graduation rates, lower cost per student ratios, and parents being able to hand pick the teachers for each upcoming year. I don't get it.
Jeff,
Maybe you can walk us through the process of identifying and removing a teacher who no longer has the ability or competence to do the job? The lack of this information seems to be why many of us feel the need for a public evaluation of teachers. Maybe you can give us the details we need?
John, I am not asserting that the system is working for removing incompetent teachers. You make a valid point when you ask if anyone knows of a teacher who has lost their job due to poor performance. However, I fail to see how simply publicizing evaluations leads to that end. There is an intricate and complex system put in place by very powerful teachers unions that makes that task virtually impossible. That is what needs the overhaul. Public evaluation does nothing to get us to the end result when there are so many other obstacles in the way. I go back to my original assertion that simply making individual job evaluation results public opens the door to misguided gossip fests and unfairly singles out teachers as the only public employees subject to questionable scrutiny. If someone can make the case that this one simple act will solve the problem(that is the basis for the poll question), then I'll consider it, but only if the standard applies to ALL public employees, myself included.
Unless the dozen or so NYS school districts i'm relatively familiar with are atypical of the rest of the state, teachers are currently evaluated by the administration annually, including being directly observed while performing their classroom duties. Poor teachers are being let go. One only need to pay close attention to published School Board Meeting Minutes to know that.
Kevin,
Can you give us the name of a School district that let a poor teacher go for poor performance? Then we could get the minutes.
Jeff,
You nailed it. The inability to get rid of a poor teacher is what drives this idea. But the evaluation is worthless unless the state changes the rules to then make it possible for local districts to take action.
I think the only thing anyone needs to know about a teacher is that they know what they are teaching...They should be tested on a yearly bases on what they are teaching..And the public should be able to know that and only that...... Every class i ever had ,had people getting A's and people getting D's in the same class....So pass and failure rates don't tell how good a teacher is....
Getting rid of the anonymous 'bad teachers' has become borderline-obsessive. Look the other way when George W. Bush initiates two wars and drives us into debt; when it comes time to pretend fiscal responsibility, shakedown teachers. (Are we really pillorying a group notorious for buying their own supplies, undertaking maintenance in their own work area and compensating student shortcomings). With 82% of teachers being female, I guess they have earned scrutiny. On with the witch-hunt!
Does anyone see the irony that this would not even be discussed if the governor, by most accounts a liberal Democrat, was not pushing it as a major part of his reform package?
I just think isolating only one group of public employees, ignore the rest, and then claim it's because they are public employees is so thin it's transparent. If you don't believe in equity of treatment, then it's a dead issue in my mind.
Do your own research, I have provided you with plenty of information. As for your attitude I won't even comment on that. Its not my fault you don't have the information needed to have an intelligent conversation on the matter.
Lemme get some tissues out here. Must be some teacher really gave you a hard time in school. I was just providing facts. Do with them what you will. I will keep living my life and when this whole idea fails and your kids are left with teachers that don't care. I will still have my education and my smile. :)
I find it fascinating that any conservative or Libertarian would support this. Please hypocrites stop coming on here and talking about personal liberties when you support things like this. If you honestly can't see how this is an front to personal liberties then I truly believe you don't understand the concept.
We are basically saying that because you get public funds, all of you personal records should be up for scrutiny. So what's next? I think we should demand to know what's on their IDP's, what meetings they attended and what was said. Maybe we should start having them tape record their one on one's so that we can listen in! Better yet! I want to know how they spend their salaries. I mean it was payed by our tax dollars! We should know what we're paying for! All of it.
Phil,
You are presently on the school board and have been in the past. Will you tell us how a teacher is identified as ineffective (if they are) and how that person is removed?
Howard, by that reasoning, then all people who are public servants should have their personal work records available, that includes local, state and federal. No one, regardless of position, should be exempt. Accountability for tax dollars is reasonable, but not just for teachers.
This is not about public accountability. This is demanding that an employee's personal work performance is made public because their pay comes from public dollars. Where is the line? How can you not see the correlation? What's to stop someone from demanding what I suggested as logical next steps?
Transparency in funds is to demand to know how those funds are spent, not demanding the personnel records of employees. It's ridiculous and a slippery slope that goes against everything personal liberty stands for.
John they are identified by their superiors. It is brought up the chain and then actions are suggested. Like most places they are given support to improve. If they do not then they have to be sent to hearings.
If you're trying to lead me down the path that tenure prevents you from terminating, you're wrong. Tenure just makes it damn hard. Do I agree with tenure? No I don't, but I don't think that the existence of tenure should justify this nonsense. Fix the problem, don't create more.
Nathan,
You say the are held accountable. You are asked to state how, but then refuse. Asking you to back up what you say is not an attitude problem, but it is a challenge, which you ducked.
And nobody is attacking the teaching profession or calling them baby sitters. We are asking that teachers who no longer can or are willing do the job anymore be identified and removed. Why do you think that is wrong?
Phil,
Thank you. What criteria do the supervisors use in the determination, how do they make that decision? Since it can not be subjective, is this procedure written anywhere in a policy book?
Who is asking for that, John? You? What do you know about it? Just because a document is placed online, what will you know about it? Are you now going to be the one to make these decisions? What makes you qualified? You pay taxes?
Seriously can you explain to me how to read this document, what it means and what the proper course of action for this associate will be?
Sure it is. It's a bunch of factors, attendance, lesson plans, observations, student engagement etc. Those in charge know what to look for and know what is or isn't acceptable. It's why their in the positions they're in.
What pisses me off about this whole line of thought is that is has nothing to do with accountability, but with control through embarrassment. With all respect, but most of you know nothing about what these people do, just like I don't know what it takes to be a journalist, or a CO, etc.
So what would it be like for you if your record was placed out in the open for all to see and you had a bad year? Everyone will know that, but they won't understand the reasons why. Now complete strangers can come up to you and talk to you about your review. Seriously? This will make them better?
Phil,,
Who is asking, yes, me.
And yes, as a tax payer, I am qualified to ask questions of my public officals.
And I think if you can read and understand the document, then I and anyone else on this site can do it also.
A teacher is not a public official! You did not elect them! They should answer to their employer not to you! (By the way I wasn't talking about me. You can ask me whatever you want)
Sad John. You know nothing of what goes into that position, so I can't wait to hear you assessment.
Phil,
You are the public official I was referring to.
And what assessment? You said the criteria to determine if a person is doing their job and the removal process is written and can be found on line. That answered the question.
As member of the School Board, do you have any idea why the Governor has pushed this. Is it his attempt to control the teacher union by embarrassment?
Bea, there is nothing that logically follows from saying that teacher evaluations should be public to saying all public employee personnel records should be public. It's completely illogical to connect to the two.
Phil, this isn't an argument about making public employee personnel records public. It's about one particular report being public.
We pay taxes under the threat of prison terms if we don't. We pay particularly outrageous taxes in NYS for statewide results that are substandard.
It's not my position or desire to embarrass anyone. I just see no logical reason -- and considering all the illogical arguments used to support for keeping results secret, nobody has any logical reason -- for keeping the public in the dark about how their forced tax dollars are working.
And let's be clear -- most teachers are good teachers, I have no doubt. Good teachers have nothing to fear. So why do you want to protect bad teachers from public scrutiny.
And btw: Lest you think I'm using some sort of double standard -- all of my work is exposed everyday for the public to see, and I know first hand what's it like to have people unhappy with your work, sometimes unhappiness expressed in quite demeaning ways, so you can't say I don't know what I'm asking.
Allow me to repost my personal position as this thread seems to have turned into an Afgan battlefield.
1) Teachers work for the school system thus the superintendant
2) The Superintendant works for the board, an elected body
3) The board works for us, therefore the board is answerable to Us via elections
Teacher performance records are empoyment records therefore confidential. Test scores should be only part of the picture, as well as monitoring by the principal or peers.
When all is exhausted, a case should be presented to the board if all other means to improve a specific teachers performance fails, prety muc he wa it actually does work in most school districts.
But everyone remember, as a parent, WE are the primary educators of our children, if you do not ask your child about what he is learning, not contacting your childrens teachers when you have questions, everything is moot. If you do all the formentioned and have concerns about a particular teacher, the principal should be your first stop, and if that isn't enough the board.
But personel records, should and must be confidential for all employees in all walks of life, I do believe that is actually the law
Misunderstanding with Public official thing, I was responding to something you stated with Nathan, of course you have the right to ask public officials (me) anything.
We are talking about their performance assessment for an individual, with their name attached for all to read. That is what I take issue with.
This Governor is against schools in toto. is it the way they've been run? Maybe, but he is not fixing the issues. He is trying to stave the flame by using these BS methods to force districts to consolidate, and put teachers on display to get the public against them. He wants County wide school systems and he is going to push against the unions until they break, but he doesn't have the courage to actually say that, so he'll just keep stealing funding instead.
Howard,
One particular report that tells strangers how someone does without giving them the understanding of what it means.
No logical reasons? I have seen no logical reasons to make it public. And saying good teachers have nothing to worry about is like saying the police should be able to stop you at will without cause because you may be a drunk driver...but if you're not there's nothing to worry about, so just take it. I can't tell you how many people didn't like that one.
Whatever we're not going to agree on this. I see mandating something like this as a front on personal liberties and you don't. That's fine, but you're not going to sway me that this is right.
There is no disconnect. My attribution bears commensurate validity to the similarly undocumented canard: among all public pay-earners, teachers are exceptionally derelict in executing their duties; so-much-so investigation into their performance records is warranted. Where is the evidence that educators have failed in their mission? Where is the evidence that educators have failed necessitating an extraordinary action, to publicize performance evaluations? Is there a crisis in education disproportional to, say, the crisis in road repair? ...Bridge maintenance? ...Budget passage? This is finger-pointing, plain and simple. It is arbitrary and out of context. If the need for evaluations emerged from a State Education Department finding, it would be less suspect. If the need for evaluation derived from public charges aired at a school board meeting, it would also be less suspect. Instead it emerges from politicians flailing in an unresolved budget gap. It amounts to a shot across the bow, creating controversy where none exists.
Boards of education are comprised of public representatives empowered to uphold community standards within schools. If they are not fulfilling their charge, replace them!
I worked in a public school for three decades. Teachers who did not measure up were not rehired. Teachers who acted unprofessionally were let go. Since such actions did occur (and not so rarely) it is evident that an internal evaluation process did exist, and it did not lack teeth.
C.M., it is so much easier, isn't it, to invent extreme positions for your opponents and argue against those than actually deal with the merits of your opponents position. As in above, you attribute positions to the other side that nobody in this thread has said.
Next time, perhaps you might try dealing with the actual argument rather than inventing positions.
C.M.
which attribution bears commensurate validity, the George W. Bush connection or the 82% of teachers being female driving the need for scrutiny? Neither were clarified in your second post.
Howard, you have pursued this since being excluded from a closed meeting deemed "personnel matters." I understand your frustration. Where does one draw the line between public right to know and protection of individual privacy? Why should one profession be scrutinized to this degree and not another?
Because sometimes teachers pick on students when they are younger and then they hate teachers forever apparently. (sarcasm)
Simply not agreeing with someone does not make their opinion not valid and pertinent to the topic. Some people just feel that they are right no matter what and you can't talk them out of stupid ideas. And not backing up an argument with facts is how it goes on here.
I pay the same taxes as everyone else, and I don't care to see their records. That is between them and the school.
My tax dollars also go to the road crews who plow the roads. Please post their evaluations
My tax dollars pay for emergency personnel, I would like to see their records(firemen, police officers, 911 dispatch).
My tax dollars also fund Libraries, Please show me their records. i want to make sure kids get the books they need.
My tax dollars fund Local government offices, I would like to make sure that people get the paperwork they need, and that the lines are sufficiently long at the DMV.
And so on. Feel free to get those public as well. I want to make sure the money I pay is being used properly in the hands of competent employees.
Next time some sweet old lady falls in her home, I want to make sure that when she calls 911 that the emergency responders have plowed roads free of pot holes, in order to take her to the local library. If someone in that chain doesn't do their job, that can mess up a life too.
By the amount of yes votes,
By the amount of yes votes, why shouldn't we make everyone's job evaluations public? Why should teachers be singled out?
I couldn't agree more, Jeff!
I couldn't agree more, Jeff! Police Officers, Fire Fighters, City/County Clerks, etc. If we're going to be mandating it, then all public employees should have to. If not, then no.
We pay their salaries. They
We pay their salaries. They need to be held accountable. New York State spends more money per student in the nation, yet we rank #38 in graduating seniors per the Governor. What is wrong with this picture??
We pay only a portion of
We pay only a portion of their salaries by virtue of our taxes, in the same way we pay a portion of most peoples salaries in our purchases. When I get work done at a mechanic, I pay his salary by virtue of the final bill. Am I then entitled to see his job evaluation? When I pay my Doctor after a visit, the proceeds go towards his compensation, am I then entitled to see his job evaluation? Waitress, bank clerk, garbage collector, insurance agent, etc.. Whose job evaluation am I NOT entitled to? If there is a problem with the current system whereas teachers are underperforming then an overhaul in the system would be in order. Making their job evaluations public only creates a gossip driven, class warfare, lynch mob mentality.
Phil, You have a case, up to
Phil,
You have a case, up to a point. If you are sending your kid to school and have the chance to pick between two or three teachers for the same subject, I'd like to know which one has a high pass rate and which one (if any) has a very poor pass rate. I think most parents would like that information.
I think what is made public is a more important issue.
The Governor is misleading in
The Governor is misleading in those comments. Actually, the January 12, 2012 Education Week’s “Quality Counts” report ranked New York schools third in the nation after studying education policy efforts, student outcomes, standards, assessments, and accountability. New York met or exceeded the national average for each of the six measurable education indicators.
The “Quality Counts” results are not atypical. A CNBC report recently ranked New York “tops” in the nation based substantially on the state’s educated workforce and our education system. And the prestigious Intel Science Talent Search just announced that of the 300 semi-finalists in this year’s high school science competition, once again more than 100 of them are from New York.
The 2012 8th Annual AP Report to the Nation ranks New York second in the number of graduates taking at least one Advance Placement exam and the number scoring 3 or higher on their AP tests.
New York is a big state and no isolated statistic can accurately depict the strengths or the challenges in this state’s very varied schools. When we talk about public schools, let’s all try to provide the most accurate accounting.
And as far as that goes, parents will want to get their students in classes of teachers ranked the best. That will not be able to logistically happen. And the problem with these evaluations is that sometimes you have administrators evaulating teachers when they themselves haven't taught as long as that teacher, do not know the subject matter or just plain don't like them on a personal level. Without unions and seniority, good seasoned teachers will be let go and the evaluations are unfair. Some teachers may even be evalutated on students who don't show up to school, but show up for the exam.
Yet antoher example. A teacher has three students out of school, on tutoring for various reasons. The teacher sends them work and the tutor sends it back. The class room experience I would have given them does not happen, the tutor's is the teacher experience. Yet, starting next year that teacher will be evaluated on those 3 tutored students' regents exam grades. There are SO MANY factors at work in a child's education BESIDES teachers. Parents, socioeconomic status, etc. So my livelihood will be directly connected to how one parents and how that child was raised from birth, essentially.
Therefore, the Governor's comments will be like a teacher's evaluation. Without seeing all the factors and statistics it will look one way, but really be another.
How would a teacher
How would a teacher evaluation be structured? Based solely on kids passing a standardized test? What about the kids that do poorly because their home life is a wreck and know one at home helps that child with homework or they go without meals. So the teacher would be held responsible for that? Do we give extra points to the teacher that gives a winter coat to one of the kids because they walked to school that morning in December with no coat.
Take Rochester City Schools for example. Their graduation rate is below 48%. 2 miles away in Brighton their graduation rate is over 95%. You really think there are that many poor teachers in Rochester City Schools? The main problem is home life, environment, work ethic etc.
To solely base test scores to evaluate a Teacher is wrong. There are two many outside factors that come into play.
If this were to come to pass,
If this were to come to pass, I wonder how many " marginal" teachers would dumb down there course and pass the kids who are lazy,or never show up or do any of the work or just incapable of getting the material. What about the kids themselves? Why should a teacher be punished for a kid who just isn't interested and doesn't want to be in school? I realize that this is a simplistic view but as stated in other post here the vaiables for evaluating whether a teacher is good or bad are multifaceted. Education is not a product of combining raw materials and pruducing a product like something off an assembly line. And what about the parents? When is the state or whomever, going to evauate them? I would guess that a large percentage of the kids not making it have parent or parents that fail miserably in that job. When are they going to be held accountable?
Rich, How do you get rid of a
Rich,
How do you get rid of a teacher who just does not do the job anymore, but is protected by seniority?
That's a very good question!.
That's a very good question!. I and I would imagine a boat load of school superintendents would really like to know the answer to. This is the down side of all unions not just teachers unions..
The one comment that always
The one comment that always bothers me is the "NY spends blah blah blah per student." Take a look at your tax packet the next time it comes out and see why it is so high. Some special need students that are shipped off to a school to meet their needs might cost 150,000 or more. Those types of things bring the average way up. Not to mention all the special need students that are in the school day to day - their cost is much more than that of a "regular" student. Other states don't have the same laws and policies on these types of students. So their average is much lower...but that doesn't make the point of "NY spends so much on students and..." statements as powerful.
The curriculum is already down to a level that is absurd. State tests are graded on a scaled score so that if you get a 38% on the Algebra regents you get a scaled 65%. Then you go to Geometry. Now you "passed" Algebra and so you should pass Geometry right...but the scale isn't the same on the Geometry exam and guess what...a great deal of success in Geometry is being able to perform Algebra...which you can do at a 38% success rate.
If anyone truly wants to fix the problem it is a rather simple one. If you can't pass 1st grade math...you don't go on to 2nd grade math. If you can't read at a 2nd grade level...you don't go on to 3rd grade reading. Right now that doesn't happen. Many schools kids can't fail a grade no matter what, or if they pass the majority of their classes they move on to the next grade. That shouldn't happen. If you aren't ready to move on you don't move on. If you are 16 and in 2nd grade math...sorry...pass it and you can move on. That one simple thing would solve the problems that so many kids have - lacking the basic skills to succeed in the classes they are sitting in.
John, that's a crock. If
John, that's a crock. If we're going to go on that method of logic, then I only want officers who have a high arrest success rate, and a fire fighter who only has a successful out rate and so on and so on. I think it's just silly, but if you're going to do it then all public employees should be subjected.
You can't isolate one group and say it's because it's public money if you're not going to hold everyone to the same standard.
Phil, Yes I can. Why can't I
Phil,
Yes I can. Why can't I know which teacher is better than the other, when both are teaching the same subject in the same school?
While I strongly believe in
While I strongly believe in teacher evaluations, I strongly disagree with making them public. The comparison was made with a mechcanic, yes, if a mechanic shop does a poor job I wouldn't go thre, but if the owner of the shop has an employee in that shop that screws up, not my business so long as the shop owner makes it right. His evaluaion of his employee is between him and the employee, the results of the service p[rovide are between me and the shop owner/manager.
Also brought up was seniority, there lies the issue, Superintendants need to base employment on merit, NO seniority, my problem is more with the Teachers unions, I am strongly against seniority based systems of any kind, you should only be guaranteedainaining your job or promotion based on performance, never on seniority.
In the end, performance records should always be kept between Employer and employee, we as tax payers employ the school system, not the teacher, so we should hold the superintendant to task, and he/she in turn should hold the tachr to task. If the Super wants the keep his/her job, I assure under a system as I suggest, only the teachers that perform will hold thier job under that5 super
John, different
John, different kids...different rating.
sorry...typing to fast
sorry...typing to fast
Rich, What different
Rich,
What different kids?
Same subject, same school, over a period of years. One teacher has a consistently better pass rate than the other. Don't I have a right to know which one does a better job?
I can see not using just one year as a snap shot, but over a period of time we should be able to see a pattern.
Don't you want your kid to have the better teacher?
If you call it a "personal"
If you call it a "personal" evaluation, it should remain personal. It is the supers responsibility to hire and fire its employees, not the public.
A mechanic is working in a
A mechanic is working in a free market. A teacher is working in a monopoly.
If you don't like the way your car repair shop does things, you can go to another shop. If you don't like the education your child is getting (with the difficult exception of private schools) you're stuck.
Also, if your mechanic screws up your car, you can sue; and while your car being screwed up might be a minor set back, one bad teacher can spoil an entire life.
The government should be transparent and open about everything it does.
Howard what are you basing
Howard what are you basing your determination of a bad teacher on? "One bad teacher can spoil an entire life." Seems extreme don't you think.
What criteria would you use to evaluate a teacher while taking into consideration all the outside issues that can come into play?
I think it's a fairly
I think it's a fairly self-evident statement.
If we apply the logic of the
If we apply the logic of the free market vs. the private sector then all public employees are working within a monopoly. We had better start publicizing the job evaluations of NYS bridge engineers. We can hardly select alternative engineers to design and inspect our bridges in New York State and one bad bridge can ruin many lives. We had better start publicizing the job evaluations of driver licensing evaluators, we can't select alternative evaluators and one bad driver can ruin many lives. The examples could go on and on but the fact is teachers have always been an easy target. Yeah, I get that they enjoy good pay, good benefits, great job security and a lot of time off, but that still does not justify them being singled out among thousands of public occupations for public scrutiny and speculation.
Like Phil said, either public evaluations for all or public evaluations for none.
So what most of you are
So what most of you are saying is that teachers have the sole responsibility of making sure your kids pass? Home situation has no role in that? I beg to differ. I jump at the chance to differ on that. Teachers have a daunting task these days dealing with kids whose parents take so little involvement in their education, that many of them probably function at a 7th grade level. Not to mention teachers have little to no way to discipline students.
Teachers have no control over whether mommy did crack or drank when she was pregnant. That has a factor on how the fetus develops, thus effects how a child develops and the education they receive.
The passing standards have been lowered because in 2001 NYS decided to make every student pass regents. I graduated right before that with the regents when it was an option. Not every student is suited to pass the regents.
There are some bad teachers out there, but to post every evaluation they receive borders on lunacy. They have enough garbage to deal with. How about people that don't know how to be teachers because they don't have the license to do so, stay out of it and let the people that have the education and paperwork to prove it do their jobs. They might do a better job if people get off their backs.
I do agree with Phil on this. If you want to see teacher evals then everyone who works any job should have theirs publicly posted.
If we were going to apply
If we were going to apply logic, then we wouldn't mention other jobs at all, whether public or private, since it's entirely irrelevant to the question at hand.
Either there is a case for keeping teacher evaluations public or making them secret. The argument stands or falls on its own merits, logically speaking.
I'll never vote for giving the government more secrets. Knowledge and openness always produces better government.
Jeff, I don't think anyone
Jeff,
I don't think anyone said they were against all evaluations being public. I am surprised how many people don't want parents to know how good or bad a teacher is. Isn't this for the kids?
Nathan, Since teachers do not
Nathan,
Since teachers do not have a peer review or professional disciplinary board as some professions, how does a parent know if the teacher is any good or just there because they can not be removed?
John, I'm against it. How do
John, I'm against it. How do you filter the results of a job performance evaluation to parents without making it public? This is not about transparency in government, it's about privacy in the employer/employee relationship regardless of whether it pertains to the private or public sector. There is an element of trust on both sides. We as taxpayers have to trust the system to address bad teachers without trying them in the court of public opinion. If that system isn't working, adjust the protocol, don't throw them to wolves of public scrutiny. There also has to be a level of trust between the teacher and the employer that matters of personnel and performance are kept within the confines of the workplace and not the public square. Eroding that trust exposes a lot of GOOD teachers to misguided public analysis.
Where are you getting the
Where are you getting the impression that teachers can not be removed? Teachers get laid off or fired all the time. They don't make that public information either because It isn't needed information. The only time the public hears about it is when there is a sex scandal involved.
Parent teacher conferences are a good way to start. Parents can meet with teachers prior to the class starting and discuss what the curriculum involves. They have to have lesson plans approved by the schools, it isn't just make stuff up and see what happens.
If your student is struggling in school there are plenty of ways to find out if a teacher is any good at being a teacher such as a phone call to the school and talk to the teacher and see how your child behaves in class, and if the homework is being done correctly and see what suggestions are offered in order to help the child succeed in school.
Jeff, Teachers get fired all
Jeff,
Teachers get fired all the time? You are joking, right?
When as the last time you know of a teacher being fired for not being good at the job anymore? And other than Jeff, does anyone else know of a teacher fired for not being a good teacher?
By the way, being laid off just means you were at the bottom of the seniority list since merit is not allowed to be considered.
But you have a point. Tenure has to be ended, peer review and maybe a professional review board instituted.
24 hours a day x 7 days a
24 hours a day x 7 days a week is 168 hours.
Lets assume that the average number of hours spent in school is 40 hours.
For every hour in school, most students should be spending 2 hours outside of class reviewing and doing homework MINIMUM. 80 hours. How many actually do that?
How much time is wasted on video games, facebook, texting, and playing stupid games on phones instead of school work, not to mention girls in high school shouldn't be allowed to have camera phones for obvious reasons....
So we are invested 120 hours so far. That leaves 48 hours a week for sleeping. Not too practical.
Lets assume the the ratio is then 1:1 total is 80 hours a week between school and study time. How many do that? Not many... Time being wasted. Teachers are not responsible for what students don't do out of class.
168 hours a week, and your child in school for 40 of those hours. Parents are responsible for 128 hours a week. hmmm Priorities of those responsible need to be established before pointing the finger and playing the blame game. Our country isn't doing good at the moment because no one wants to accept that mistakes were made, we need to fix them. It is always at the fault of others.
Yes, I am aware of what being
Yes, I am aware of what being laid off means.
All tenure does it make it harder to fire someone, doesn't make them untouchable. Teachers get audited all the time by administration and supers. They are always on the chopping block.
Nathan, Shifting this to the
Nathan,
Shifting this to the kids or parents is a neat trick, but does not address the issue of parents being allowed to know if the teacher is any good.
You might be a great parent, you do everything right and your kid is highly motivated to learn. But if the teacher can not teach, do you have a right as a parent to know?
That's what this is about, your right to know if the person teaching your child can do the job.
You do not think parents have that right, I do.
You do have the right to
You do have the right to know, I don't think you have the right to see every teachers job evaluation. Ask any new teacher how hard it is to get tenure right now.
And if a public opinion pole is given to teachers that is just irrelevant information. That is about as useful as movie critics. Braveheart was a great movie, but not everyone thinks so.
There are so many factors that go into how a child learns that it isn't fair to a teacher to post that and assume that if 5 kids didn't pass that year its because the teacher isn't doing their job.
As a parent if you are concerned you can speak to schools and sort out the details. Would you want your evaluation to be posted so everyone sees every comment?
And don't mistake me, There
And don't mistake me, There are some really HORRIBLE teachers out there, but why punish them all because of a few. That is going to make people not go into the profession, or leave the profession and go into something else. Such as healthcare as I decided to do.
Nathan, You say we have the
Nathan,
You say we have the right to know. Are you saying a parent can go in and see the audit or evaluation? And if that evaluation said the teacher can not do the job, but is still there because of tenure, do you have the right to demand your child's placement with a teacher who can?
The fact that students might
The fact that students might goof off is no reason not to hold teachers accountable.
The fact that some parents are bad parents is no reason not to hold teachers accountable.
Public evaluations doesn't punish good teachers. It rewards them (referring to "why punish them all because of a few").
Arguing against transparency is like arguing against accountability and excellence.
Mark Brudz has it right.
Mark Brudz has it right. Evaluations should be between the employee and the employer. It needs to be up to school administration to review and deal with evaluation results not the public at large. And if the public doesn't like the results they get from the school they evaluate and deal with school administration. Really, this should be no different than how we deal with employees of the county clerk's office or highway department or any other gov't department.
Howard, it isn't arguing
Howard, it isn't arguing against transparency. It is about putting public pressure where it belongs. Public scrutiny is properly put on school administration, not on the rank and file employees of the school. The public should not be micromanaging the school. We have paid, supposedly professionally trained, administrators to do that job correctly. If we have to micro-manage their essential functions then why have them around? We should be monitoring the admin, not the rank and file.
if you want to observe a
if you want to observe a class and not be disruptful I am sure any teacher would let you come in and visit for the day. They would have to get it cleared by the admin first.
How does looking at someones evaluation tell you that they are a good teacher. maybe that teacher is awesome and doesn't get along with the boss.
** and Howard
If you think that those other factors don't play a major role in education you really should do more research on it.
Different cognitive levels of students plays a major role.
Every student has a different learning style, visual, kinesthetic, artistic, auditory so its not always possible to customize every lesson plan to every student.
Accountable is way different than putting everything out in the open. People make mistakes and if they are corrected on their eval, then that shouldn't be public knowledge because if that wasn't a big mistake or something they want the teacher to implement then that could go on there. That isn't the publics business.
The government is so not transparent in so many levels why make teachers the brunt of the BS. They deal with plenty of it from parents and admin as it is. It would be a hindrance to the learning process.
I have listed plenty of ways to figure out how teachers are with out posting it on a public forum. Yes they take a little extra effort on the parents part, but most teachers actually appreciate parents being concerned for their childs education.
Believe it or not most teachers dont rack up $70k worth of student loans to make $30 to 35k a year to start if they can even get a job for how good the money is. Most get into teacher because they want to, and if they eventually make decent money for dealing with all the "stuff" they do now, more power to them.
Teaching is one of the hardest jobs you can get into due to many factors, and I feel that no matter what anyone says on here, it would be a huge mistake to post their evaluations.
"That's what this is about,
"That's what this is about, your right to know if the person teaching your child can do the job.
You do not think parents have that right, I do."
Take this matter up with the Board of Education in NYS for giving them the license. They have to pass student teaching which is pretty much a peer review because you have to be passed by the teacher you shadow and teach for. The College has to approve of your grades, you have to take all the electives that make you oh so well rounded, after you get your paper that says you are done with school, you then have to go back and get your masters.
Ultimately NYS are the ones who determine who is fit to be a teacher. They have set criteria that they go by. If you meet that you can teach.
If you child is putting in the work, and parents do their job, and the teacher is doing their job. There shouldn't be a problem. If there is you contact the teacher and discuss the problem with them.
yes.
yes.
Good response, when will the
Good response, when will the state implement parent evaluations. Lets make those public too. It might help me decide where I should live so my grandkids dont have to play with rif-raf families with zero appreciation of education and no accountability. The people kids hang around is a huge factor in their overall sucess and attitude about school.
Nathan wrote, "Different
Nathan wrote, "Different cognitive levels of students plays a major role."
Yes, but teachers aren't evaluated on on how they perform in respect to individual students. That's why "cognitive levels" are irrelevant to grading teachers. They all deal with some students who excel and some who don't. They all have the same equal opportunity to ensure good students continue to excel and poor students have a chance to improve. Any fair evaluation looks at the spectrum of student performance, which totally negates any argument about "cognitive level."
If teachers were paid by merit, free to negotiate their own individual salary, rather than by group contract, then public evaluations would diminish in importance. In the absence of free market controls, the public has a right to know how their teachers are performing.
Posting their evaluation
Posting their evaluation won't give you that information.
Cognitive roles plays a HUGE role in education. Inclusion of students who can't learn or don't want to learn disrupts from those that are there to learn. Or the classes have to be dumbed down somewhat to accommodate them. And yes that happens to all teachers. That doesn't negate anything.
The point of this whole thing is someone has a hair in the butt about teachers. And this is just another chance to take a jab at them. Obviously people haven't ready more than 1/3 of what I wrote. If you want to know if a teacher is a good teacher take and active role in your childs education. Bottom line.
"Arguing against transparency
"Arguing against transparency is like arguing against accountability and excellence." I don't perceive that anyone is arguing against transparency of the process, it is transparency of the individual results that is bothersome. Again, we are singling out teachers as the only public servants who need to be put on display for public analysis. I don't see how that solves the problem, it just creates a gossip fest. If we are on the other hand talking about putting out every public employees personal job evaluation results then you may have an argument based on logical consistency. We then would have to address two new problems. 1. How would the quality of individual applying for public sector work be affected when they knew going in that unlike any other private sector position, their job performance would be on public display? 2. In order to make all this information public, an abundance of man hours, costly process, and checks and balances would have to first be implemented to ensure that the correct information was released. Last time I checked, New York did not have scads of discretionary money laying around to be applied to the pursuit of an endeavor that would only have theoretical success at best.
Nathan, one thing good
Nathan, one thing good teachers do is effectively deal with students who "who can't learn or don't want to learn."
Your line of argument would lead to only one conclusion: that teachers shouldn't be evaluated at all. Who cares if they're good or bad teachers, because who can teach these kids today anyway? That's essentially what you're saying. If it's kids and the parents who are the problem, why should their be any accountability, public or not -- heck, superintendents shouldn't even be allowed discipline poor teacher performance, after all the damn kids don't want to learn anyway, so who cares if a teacher is good or bad. Heck, they're just there to babysit anyway.
Now, if you believe that there are many, many teachers who are good, and some who are bad, shouldn't there be a formal process -- especially in a unionized situation -- to evaluate the good from the bad?
Your solution of taking an active role doesn't apply to me and the majority of taxpayers. I have no children in school. Taxpayers who have children who have graduated, or never had children, don't have children in school. But how the children in our community are educated effects us all, that's the very theory behind making all taxpayers support education. Now, if you don't think teacher performance is any of my business, then stop taking money from me to pay for schools.
It's nothing against teachers -- it's against a bureaucratic system without checks and balances that needs fixed. Schools cost too much money, produce less than satisfactory results, but we're all supposed to remain in the dark about how our money is being spent. Regardless of what else is going on in society, schools are charged with educating children, and there is no excuse for not getting that done.
Public accountability provides some third-party oversight to the process.
BTW: Just to put a stat on
BTW: Just to put a stat on one of my assertions above, in Batavia, about 60 percent of the households don't have children.
http://www.clrsearch.com/Batavia_Demographics/NY/Household-Makeup-and-S…
We could go round and round
We could go round and round all day but I don't have the desire to.
Teachers are accountable, they are put to task. Their evaluations don't need to be public.
Standardized tests are the only thing that proves if a student learns right? Wrong. Goes back to my learning styles. Some students don't do well regardless of who is teaching.
You can't just assume that teachers are there to babysit because I think parents need to be responsible. And to take out that parents are responsible is idiotic.
"The teacher’s job description revolves around the power to change the world by providing great education, and moulding the kids to become great human beings. The teachers have to work closely with the parents and coordinate with them regarding their child. If they spot any behavioural disabilities in a child, they have to contact the parents and inform them. The teacher’s jobs are to teach the students to become successful in life and are also responsible for the overall development of the child. The job of the teacher is to guide the students towards his/her interest and also help in in development in the field of interest by working with the coordination of the parents.Teachers are the ones who mould the children into what they will become someday." taken from...
http://newjobdescriptions.com/teacher-job-description.htm
you are really jumping to come up with something to try and take down my argument saying that they are just baby sitters and i don't think they should be responsible.
However, what I have pointed out is a VERY LARGE portion of why students don't do well for many reasons. You seem to not grasp that fact.
So what criteria make a teacher a good teacher?
What would the public want to know?
Why should the public see their evaluations?
What are the penalties for not meeting the criteria?
Who decides what that criteria is?
If standardized testing is a measure, then the argument that standardized testing isn't fair to students that can't keep up, how does that play into it? However NYS supreme court ruled that this was not a good indicator of success in August of 2011.
If you don't have kids, then you don't need to read specifically on what teacher does what. If you are concerned about what your money does, then maybe a school wide assessment should be done as the scientific data would have better results to determine if a school system is effective rather than an individual basis.
Nathan, Maybe you can tell us
Nathan,
Maybe you can tell us how poor teachers are held accountable? And if a teacher is found to be deficient, what happens?
Can you tell us where a teacher was let go for being a poor teacher?
Can anyone walk us through
Can anyone walk us through the process of how simply making individual teacher job evaluations public solves the problem of poor performing teachers and how it empowers parents to have more control over their child's education? Just give us a brief outline of how publicizing teachers evaluations = better student success, higher graduation rates, lower cost per student ratios, and parents being able to hand pick the teachers for each upcoming year. I don't get it.
Jeff, Maybe you can walk us
Jeff,
Maybe you can walk us through the process of identifying and removing a teacher who no longer has the ability or competence to do the job? The lack of this information seems to be why many of us feel the need for a public evaluation of teachers. Maybe you can give us the details we need?
John, I am not asserting that
John, I am not asserting that the system is working for removing incompetent teachers. You make a valid point when you ask if anyone knows of a teacher who has lost their job due to poor performance. However, I fail to see how simply publicizing evaluations leads to that end. There is an intricate and complex system put in place by very powerful teachers unions that makes that task virtually impossible. That is what needs the overhaul. Public evaluation does nothing to get us to the end result when there are so many other obstacles in the way. I go back to my original assertion that simply making individual job evaluation results public opens the door to misguided gossip fests and unfairly singles out teachers as the only public employees subject to questionable scrutiny. If someone can make the case that this one simple act will solve the problem(that is the basis for the poll question), then I'll consider it, but only if the standard applies to ALL public employees, myself included.
Unless the dozen or so NYS
Unless the dozen or so NYS school districts i'm relatively familiar with are atypical of the rest of the state, teachers are currently evaluated by the administration annually, including being directly observed while performing their classroom duties. Poor teachers are being let go. One only need to pay close attention to published School Board Meeting Minutes to know that.
Kevin, Can you give us the
Kevin,
Can you give us the name of a School district that let a poor teacher go for poor performance? Then we could get the minutes.
Jeff,
You nailed it. The inability to get rid of a poor teacher is what drives this idea. But the evaluation is worthless unless the state changes the rules to then make it possible for local districts to take action.
I think the only thing anyone
I think the only thing anyone needs to know about a teacher is that they know what they are teaching...They should be tested on a yearly bases on what they are teaching..And the public should be able to know that and only that...... Every class i ever had ,had people getting A's and people getting D's in the same class....So pass and failure rates don't tell how good a teacher is....
Mark, good comment.
Mark, good comment.
Getting rid of the anonymous
Getting rid of the anonymous 'bad teachers' has become borderline-obsessive. Look the other way when George W. Bush initiates two wars and drives us into debt; when it comes time to pretend fiscal responsibility, shakedown teachers. (Are we really pillorying a group notorious for buying their own supplies, undertaking maintenance in their own work area and compensating student shortcomings). With 82% of teachers being female, I guess they have earned scrutiny. On with the witch-hunt!
Wow C.M, the witch hunters
Wow C.M, the witch hunters came out with thumbs down in a hurry.
CM, Another pathetic attempt
CM,
Another pathetic attempt to link Bush to a unrelated subject. We know you hate Bush, fine, but you are going overboard.
C.M., who among those calling
C.M., who among those calling for government transparency on this topic also support GWB?
As for the rest of your comment, utter and complete unrelated nonsense.
Of course, I've learned, when people can't win an argument on facts and logic, they resort to non-sequiturs.
Does anyone see the irony
Does anyone see the irony that this would not even be discussed if the governor, by most accounts a liberal Democrat, was not pushing it as a major part of his reform package?
I just think isolating only
I just think isolating only one group of public employees, ignore the rest, and then claim it's because they are public employees is so thin it's transparent. If you don't believe in equity of treatment, then it's a dead issue in my mind.
Phil, Not one person who
Phil,
Not one person who supports at least the concept, said they were against the same thing for all.
Do your own research, I have
Do your own research, I have provided you with plenty of information. As for your attitude I won't even comment on that. Its not my fault you don't have the information needed to have an intelligent conversation on the matter.
Lemme get some tissues out here. Must be some teacher really gave you a hard time in school. I was just providing facts. Do with them what you will. I will keep living my life and when this whole idea fails and your kids are left with teachers that don't care. I will still have my education and my smile. :)
I have always had great teachers.
I find it fascinating that
I find it fascinating that any conservative or Libertarian would support this. Please hypocrites stop coming on here and talking about personal liberties when you support things like this. If you honestly can't see how this is an front to personal liberties then I truly believe you don't understand the concept.
We are basically saying that because you get public funds, all of you personal records should be up for scrutiny. So what's next? I think we should demand to know what's on their IDP's, what meetings they attended and what was said. Maybe we should start having them tape record their one on one's so that we can listen in! Better yet! I want to know how they spend their salaries. I mean it was payed by our tax dollars! We should know what we're paying for! All of it.
This is such a crock.
glad someone has sense.
glad someone has sense.
Nothing like arguing from the
Nothing like arguing from the extreme, uh, Phil? Nobody has come even remotely close to arguing for what you say above.
There is nothing anti-libertarian about public accountability for tax dollars.
Phil, You are presently on
Phil,
You are presently on the school board and have been in the past. Will you tell us how a teacher is identified as ineffective (if they are) and how that person is removed?
Howard, by that reasoning,
Howard, by that reasoning, then all people who are public servants should have their personal work records available, that includes local, state and federal. No one, regardless of position, should be exempt. Accountability for tax dollars is reasonable, but not just for teachers.
This is not about public
This is not about public accountability. This is demanding that an employee's personal work performance is made public because their pay comes from public dollars. Where is the line? How can you not see the correlation? What's to stop someone from demanding what I suggested as logical next steps?
Transparency in funds is to demand to know how those funds are spent, not demanding the personnel records of employees. It's ridiculous and a slippery slope that goes against everything personal liberty stands for.
John they are identified by
John they are identified by their superiors. It is brought up the chain and then actions are suggested. Like most places they are given support to improve. If they do not then they have to be sent to hearings.
If you're trying to lead me down the path that tenure prevents you from terminating, you're wrong. Tenure just makes it damn hard. Do I agree with tenure? No I don't, but I don't think that the existence of tenure should justify this nonsense. Fix the problem, don't create more.
Nathan, You say the are held
Nathan,
You say the are held accountable. You are asked to state how, but then refuse. Asking you to back up what you say is not an attitude problem, but it is a challenge, which you ducked.
And nobody is attacking the teaching profession or calling them baby sitters. We are asking that teachers who no longer can or are willing do the job anymore be identified and removed. Why do you think that is wrong?
Phil, Thank you. What
Phil,
Thank you. What criteria do the supervisors use in the determination, how do they make that decision? Since it can not be subjective, is this procedure written anywhere in a policy book?
Who is asking for that, John?
Who is asking for that, John? You? What do you know about it? Just because a document is placed online, what will you know about it? Are you now going to be the one to make these decisions? What makes you qualified? You pay taxes?
Seriously can you explain to me how to read this document, what it means and what the proper course of action for this associate will be?
John, Sure it is. It's a
John,
Sure it is. It's a bunch of factors, attendance, lesson plans, observations, student engagement etc. Those in charge know what to look for and know what is or isn't acceptable. It's why their in the positions they're in.
What pisses me off about this
What pisses me off about this whole line of thought is that is has nothing to do with accountability, but with control through embarrassment. With all respect, but most of you know nothing about what these people do, just like I don't know what it takes to be a journalist, or a CO, etc.
So what would it be like for you if your record was placed out in the open for all to see and you had a bad year? Everyone will know that, but they won't understand the reasons why. Now complete strangers can come up to you and talk to you about your review. Seriously? This will make them better?
Horrible.
Phil,, Who is asking, yes,
Phil,,
Who is asking, yes, me.
And yes, as a tax payer, I am qualified to ask questions of my public officals.
And I think if you can read and understand the document, then I and anyone else on this site can do it also.
A teacher is not a public
A teacher is not a public official! You did not elect them! They should answer to their employer not to you! (By the way I wasn't talking about me. You can ask me whatever you want)
Sad John. You know nothing of what goes into that position, so I can't wait to hear you assessment.
Phil, You are the public
Phil,
You are the public official I was referring to.
And what assessment? You said the criteria to determine if a person is doing their job and the removal process is written and can be found on line. That answered the question.
As member of the School Board, do you have any idea why the Governor has pushed this. Is it his attempt to control the teacher union by embarrassment?
Bea, there is nothing that
Bea, there is nothing that logically follows from saying that teacher evaluations should be public to saying all public employee personnel records should be public. It's completely illogical to connect to the two.
Phil, this isn't an argument about making public employee personnel records public. It's about one particular report being public.
We pay taxes under the threat of prison terms if we don't. We pay particularly outrageous taxes in NYS for statewide results that are substandard.
It's not my position or desire to embarrass anyone. I just see no logical reason -- and considering all the illogical arguments used to support for keeping results secret, nobody has any logical reason -- for keeping the public in the dark about how their forced tax dollars are working.
And let's be clear -- most teachers are good teachers, I have no doubt. Good teachers have nothing to fear. So why do you want to protect bad teachers from public scrutiny.
And btw: Lest you think I'm using some sort of double standard -- all of my work is exposed everyday for the public to see, and I know first hand what's it like to have people unhappy with your work, sometimes unhappiness expressed in quite demeaning ways, so you can't say I don't know what I'm asking.
Allow me to repost my
Allow me to repost my personal position as this thread seems to have turned into an Afgan battlefield.
1) Teachers work for the school system thus the superintendant
2) The Superintendant works for the board, an elected body
3) The board works for us, therefore the board is answerable to Us via elections
Teacher performance records are empoyment records therefore confidential. Test scores should be only part of the picture, as well as monitoring by the principal or peers.
When all is exhausted, a case should be presented to the board if all other means to improve a specific teachers performance fails, prety muc he wa it actually does work in most school districts.
But everyone remember, as a parent, WE are the primary educators of our children, if you do not ask your child about what he is learning, not contacting your childrens teachers when you have questions, everything is moot. If you do all the formentioned and have concerns about a particular teacher, the principal should be your first stop, and if that isn't enough the board.
But personel records, should and must be confidential for all employees in all walks of life, I do believe that is actually the law
John, Misunderstanding with
John,
Misunderstanding with Public official thing, I was responding to something you stated with Nathan, of course you have the right to ask public officials (me) anything.
We are talking about their performance assessment for an individual, with their name attached for all to read. That is what I take issue with.
This Governor is against schools in toto. is it the way they've been run? Maybe, but he is not fixing the issues. He is trying to stave the flame by using these BS methods to force districts to consolidate, and put teachers on display to get the public against them. He wants County wide school systems and he is going to push against the unions until they break, but he doesn't have the courage to actually say that, so he'll just keep stealing funding instead.
Howard,
One particular report that tells strangers how someone does without giving them the understanding of what it means.
No logical reasons? I have seen no logical reasons to make it public. And saying good teachers have nothing to worry about is like saying the police should be able to stop you at will without cause because you may be a drunk driver...but if you're not there's nothing to worry about, so just take it. I can't tell you how many people didn't like that one.
Whatever we're not going to agree on this. I see mandating something like this as a front on personal liberties and you don't. That's fine, but you're not going to sway me that this is right.
Thank you Mark! Well said.
Thank you Mark! Well said.
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There is no disconnect. My
There is no disconnect. My attribution bears commensurate validity to the similarly undocumented canard: among all public pay-earners, teachers are exceptionally derelict in executing their duties; so-much-so investigation into their performance records is warranted. Where is the evidence that educators have failed in their mission? Where is the evidence that educators have failed necessitating an extraordinary action, to publicize performance evaluations? Is there a crisis in education disproportional to, say, the crisis in road repair? ...Bridge maintenance? ...Budget passage? This is finger-pointing, plain and simple. It is arbitrary and out of context. If the need for evaluations emerged from a State Education Department finding, it would be less suspect. If the need for evaluation derived from public charges aired at a school board meeting, it would also be less suspect. Instead it emerges from politicians flailing in an unresolved budget gap. It amounts to a shot across the bow, creating controversy where none exists.
Boards of education are comprised of public representatives empowered to uphold community standards within schools. If they are not fulfilling their charge, replace them!
I worked in a public school for three decades. Teachers who did not measure up were not rehired. Teachers who acted unprofessionally were let go. Since such actions did occur (and not so rarely) it is evident that an internal evaluation process did exist, and it did not lack teeth.
C.M., it is so much easier,
C.M., it is so much easier, isn't it, to invent extreme positions for your opponents and argue against those than actually deal with the merits of your opponents position. As in above, you attribute positions to the other side that nobody in this thread has said.
Next time, perhaps you might try dealing with the actual argument rather than inventing positions.
C.M. which attribution bears
C.M.
which attribution bears commensurate validity, the George W. Bush connection or the 82% of teachers being female driving the need for scrutiny? Neither were clarified in your second post.
CM, is GW Bush responsible
CM, is GW Bush responsible for your laundry not being done this week?
Like looking for one's
Like looking for one's glasses when they are on one's face. It's called metaphor; the relationship exists solely in juxtaposition.
Howard, you have pursued this
Howard, you have pursued this since being excluded from a closed meeting deemed "personnel matters." I understand your frustration. Where does one draw the line between public right to know and protection of individual privacy? Why should one profession be scrutinized to this degree and not another?
Because sometimes teachers
Because sometimes teachers pick on students when they are younger and then they hate teachers forever apparently. (sarcasm)
Simply not agreeing with someone does not make their opinion not valid and pertinent to the topic. Some people just feel that they are right no matter what and you can't talk them out of stupid ideas. And not backing up an argument with facts is how it goes on here.
I pay the same taxes as everyone else, and I don't care to see their records. That is between them and the school.
My tax dollars also go to the road crews who plow the roads. Please post their evaluations
My tax dollars pay for emergency personnel, I would like to see their records(firemen, police officers, 911 dispatch).
My tax dollars also fund Libraries, Please show me their records. i want to make sure kids get the books they need.
My tax dollars fund Local government offices, I would like to make sure that people get the paperwork they need, and that the lines are sufficiently long at the DMV.
And so on. Feel free to get those public as well. I want to make sure the money I pay is being used properly in the hands of competent employees.
Next time some sweet old lady falls in her home, I want to make sure that when she calls 911 that the emergency responders have plowed roads free of pot holes, in order to take her to the local library. If someone in that chain doesn't do their job, that can mess up a life too.