Today's Poll: Should the U.S. use military force to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons?
People - haven't we sent enough of our soldiers to be wastefully killed/maimed. Are the citizens of this country so blood thirsty that they want to kill/maim more. This is Israel's fight NOT OURS.
We cannot rely on the notion that this is Israel's fight. There is much to be said about the destabilization of that entire region. I at least feel confident that Obama and his advisers are only looking at surgical airstrikes on nuclear installations at this point. We must remember that all the same lunatics that want nothing less than the total annihilation of Israel, want the same thing for us. Even though Iran would not have the capability of a direct nuclear strike on the US, their having nuclear weapon capability at all is simply out of the question when it comes to our overall security.
Ted I have to agree with you on this. The way that region is Israel isnt going to make a move against Iran unless it knows it can win. They might be very adversarial but they really dont go into outright armed conflict with the chance they will be wiped off the earth. Obamas current stance shows that cant really count on us as much as they would like so that will affect their decision.
Jeff you really cant paint this situation with a sich a generalism. The reason the enemies of Israel want to wipe us out is because of our support of Israel. However if they do end up fighting and we take a sideline and let them hash it out it might even improve our standing with this region (except Israel of course. Your assessment of them being able to strike at us is correct but their technology just isnt that sophisticated and the likelyhood of them hitting their mark isnt very likely at all. On the other side of that coin if they engaged us...wouldnt that end up making them pretty vulnerable to Russia or China just walking in and absorbing their country? They arent gonna fight all 3 of us. They'll just be on par with NKorea which does have nukes but still hasnt hit us despite the hatred they hold for us.
why take the chance kyle.....these people i believe are a little sicker than north koreans.....no way they should have nukes....no way!
Kyle - thanks for your support.
Let's all remember how we got dragged into Iraq. I am sorry to say this but If I had a son/daughter in the military right now and they were ordered to attack Iran and they told their commander "Go To H....." I would be proud of them. I no longer trust our politicians or military to tell us the truth. If we allowed Pakistan, India, North Korea to have nukes, WHY NOT IRAN. They see us being cautious around North Korea because they have nukes so naturally Iran wants the same protection. It is only reasonable.
Any Islamic nation with nuke capabilities is a serious threat to all christian nations,this is spelled out in the koran, any religion other than islam is not tolerable to followers of islam, their goal is world domination.
I am not a war monger and hope sanctions work, however, we would be foolish to think that if Iran possesses weapons grade materials, it is only a matter of time before a terrorist group gets their hands on it as well.
In my opinion, Islam is a terrorist organization, so when Iran possesses weapons grade material, so do terrorist.
What you fail to realize too is that while they are fanatical and a bit unbalanced is that they also fight amongst themselves and are just as likely to use this on each other...(immediate threat) vs us. The other thing is that a sept 11th type attack on us with nukes is going to end up making the country of origin a parkinglot. So not all the Arab states are gonna want that either. 1 year fighting with the japanese in the 40's we realized how suicidal they were. From what I hear (maybe John has heard the same scuttlebutt)that while there are some suicidal bombers and such, most of the leadership does want to live and isnt as willing to see if there are 40 virgins (goats) waiting for them just yet.
Mr. Bartholomew, to call "Islam a terrorist organization", you sir are a bigot. Any claim that anything Iran will or could do will destabilize the area is laughable given the invasion of Iraq by the U.S. and it's "coalition of the willing". The G.W.Bush administration has done more to make Iran a regional power than the Iranians could have ever hoped to.
The Iranians have as much right to nuclear weapons as Israel or the U.S. does or have we forgotten that Israel has its own stockpile and in light of the recent history of how nations with nukes are treated they would be foolish not to develope them as a deterance. Just look at how we treat Pakistan or North Korea, both nations would be toast if not for their nukes.
Iran is not likely to use it's WMD (chemical&biological) otherwise they would have when they were at war with Iraq. Iraq, did use the WMD they had on provived courtesy of the Reagan/Bush administration. When the time came for Iraq to actually use their WMD as a deterance couldn't because they had already exhausted their supply and and the U.S. knew it because we supplied them and we kept track of them.
Kyle, Iran is not an Arab state and post-9/11 were co-operating with the U.S. to eliminate Al Qaeda. The Persians have their own culture, variety of religion than the Arabs, Iranians are primaraly Shiite where as Arabs are either Sunni or Wahabi followers of Islam, Iran has the second largest population of Jews outside of Israel who enjoy legal protections under their laws.
Mr.Gentner, my interpertation of the koran, or whatever the muslim holy book is called these days, makes it as plain as day we, non-believers, are inferior to muslims, in islam, only those who follow the words of mohammed are worthy. If their goal, according to the "Hadiths" are to convert or kill the infidels, that would make me believe I'm a target, as are all non-muslims. Call it what you will Ed, but many better wake up and see the agenda of this so called religion, aka,terrorist group, before they prove what I said.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL DO WHATEVER ISRAEL TELLS IT TO DO.....
AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT......
You can't nit pick Koran Verses, I can do the same to the bible.
1 Timothy 5:8 (If you don’t provide for your family, you are an infidel)
Matthew 12:30 (If you’re not with Jesus, you’re against him)
Matthew 15:4 (Death for not honouring your father and mother)
Psalms 137:9 (Violence against children)
Deuteronomy 20:10-14 (Attack city, kill all men, keep women, children as spoils of war)
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (Death penalty for a rebellious son)
Ecclesiastes 1:18 (Knowledge is bad)
Exodus 21:1-7 (Rules for buying slaves)
Exodus 35:2 (Death for working on the Sabbath)
Ezekiel 9:5-6 (Murder women/children)
Ezekiel 23:19-20 (A whore who had sex with men hung like donkeys)
Galatians 5:2-4 (If you are circumcised, Christ has nothing for you)
Genesis 3:16 (Man shall rule over woman)
Jeremiah 19:9 (Cannibalism)
Leviticus 20:9 (Death for cursing father or mother)
Leviticus 20:10 (Death for adultery)
Leviticus 20:13 (Death for gay men)
Leviticus 20:15 (Death for bestiality)
Leviticus 20:18 (No sex with a woman on her period)
Leviticus 21:17-23 (Ugly people, lame, dwarfs, not welcome on altar)
Leviticus 25:45 (Strangers can be bought as slaves)
Israel's far right-wing is the ONLY real threat to Mideast peace. Israel is NOT part of the nuclear non proliferation treaty and has well over 200 non announced nuclear weapons, IRAN has signed the treaty and has ZERO nuclear weapons. Israel has launched 5 wars, since 1948 and annexed 3 territories illegally by international law. Iran hasn't invaded anyone in over 270 years. Seriously who's the real threat? Do you not remember being lied to and being dragged into Iraq?
I'm 19 years old, and my Country has been at war for over 3/4ths of my life, when does it end?
What you fail to understand is that though the bible says those things, we don't uphold them in todays society. They however do. They will chop your hand off, or beat you with canes, or run your arm over with a truck.
19 years old. Thats cool. Ever been to Israel? Ever been to Iraq? There is a reason people in Israel are all required to be military trained, its not safe. And if we weren't telling them to back off they would have solved the problems over there already because they aren't as diplomatic as we are. Right-wing. haha If the whole world was left wing we would all be happy right? get real.
People need to drop the wings and start learning what real compromise is. Until that happens we won't progress. Means both sides have to give in a little. I am not willing to give up my freedoms to give in to left wing ideals however.
Bush is not in office anymore. next topic...
Islam is not a peaceful religion. Are there people within that religion that don't think violence yes. However according to sharia law anyone that is not a Muslim or supports anyone that is not Muslim is an infidel, punishable by death.
So anyone who is a follower of this religion that follows this code, well you be the judge. Or Don't be because you are just blaming everything on republicans which goes to show that you are just as bigoted as the person you are accusing of it.
As for their "rights" to WMDs, they are not stable enough to handle these weapons. Korea is testing their weapons in Iran, as well as Iran testing. We have a lot of them however we don't intend to use them, and we have been exploring other alternatives. To suggest that Iran is capable of having nuclear technology and maintain it safely just shows how ill-informed you are regardless of how many little fact nuggets you toss around. I would love to get started on everything past presidents have done wrong, and I would be here all day saying what the current one has done wrong.
Should Iran have this technology? No. Plain and simple. No one should.
haha Bring on the thumbs downs :(
The United States has directly and indirectly backed nuclear technology in Iran since the 1950s. Iran’s nuclear program began as part of the Atoms for Peace Program launched by President Dwight D. Eisenhower’s UN General Assembly address on December 8, 1953. Eisenhower in a stunning turnabout from post-Atomic Age Bomb Paranoia proposed a new mindset, “hasten the day when fear of the atom will begin to disappear from the minds of people.” Eisenhower’s plan established the International Atomic Development Agency and a “uranium bank” ostensibly to draw Moscow into arms talks.
The U.S. Atomic Energy Act was revised in 1954 to allow export of nuclear technology and materials. Corporations were on board to “strengthen American world leadership” and disavow Communist allegations of American nuclear domination. The operative assumption was that sharing U.S. technology would result in no practical nuclear development for decades. One year later, Eisenhower directed the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission to provide “limited amounts of raw and fissionable materials” to “free nations.”
Even minimal rules designed to suppress weapons development were poorly enforced. Under terms of fissionable material export law, spent fuel elements were supposed to be returned to U.S. facilities for processing. Nuclear-material-supplying nations including the U.S. were negligent in enforcing that rule. Trust in safe commercial sharing of material and technology was equally naïve and ill-placed. Nuclear technology custodians were enthusiastic about atomic energy’s political and commercial opportunities, they ignored the flipside of the coin. Their bubble burst in 1974 when India exploded its test bomb. …A bomb essentially based on fissionable material derived from spent fuel elements.
The same year Iran bought 600 tons of ‘yellowcake’ concentrated uranium ore from South Africa.
Humbly initiated in 1957, by 1967, Iran had a state-run nuclear research institute established in Tehran. The institute (TNRC) was outfitted with a 5-megawatt enriched uranium reactor supplied by the U.S. Iran (still under rule of the Shah) signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) in 1968, submitting to International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) oversight. The Shah’s vision was to sell oil and power Iran with nuclear fuel. With U.S. aid he intended to build 20 nuclear generating plants by 2000. He became the darling of the U.S. nuclear energy companies.
The Shah’s dreams (and treasury) also invited interest from Western Europe. Germany’s Kraftwerk Union AG entered a 1975 joint venture with Siemens AG and AEG to build a $6 billion pressurized water plant. To fuel the Shah’s dream, France, Belgium, Spain and Sweden entered into billion dollar deals to supply enriched uranium for the future Iranian reactors.
In 1976 President Gerald Ford offered the Shah an opportunity to buy and operate a U.S.-built reprocessing facility to extract plutonium, a complete nuclear fuel cycle. Dick Cheney was Ford’s Chief of Staff; Don Rumsfield, his Secretary of Defense and Paul Wolfowiz was arms control analyst. The Ford administration green-lighted U.S./Iranian designs on major nuclear energy development while affording Teheran control of plutonium and enriched uranium. Simultaneously, the Shah was agreeing to contract with South Africa to develop enriched uranium. Iran’s nuclear program benefited from U.S., commercial and international aid up to the point of the 1979 revolution.
Most agreements collapsed when the Shah was deposed and the revolutionary government assumed control of Iran. …Until Argentina made an agreement with Iran to convert their reactor to low-enriched uranium fuel and supply same.
In 1981, Iran decided to resurrect its nuclear development program. Reports to the IAEA noted local expertise and an ambitious program for fuel cycle technology; also noted, UO2 pellet fuel fabrication and enrichment of fuel grade uranium. In April 1984, West German intelligence reported that Iran might develop a nuclear bomb using uranium obtained from Pakistan. Later that year, Senator Alan Cranston speculated Iran was seven years away from a nuclear weapon.
The Iran – Iraq War (1980 – 88) had resulted in damage to Iran’s nuclear facilities, moreover it underscored Iran’s lack of a nuclear deterrent. Evidence suggests Iran began developing a gas centrifuge in 1985. A centrifuge is used to extract U 235 from heavier U 238. Iranians researched centrifuge equipment abroad, and in 1987 acquired components from A. Q. Kahn (rogue elements of Pakistan’s state-run weapons program). Highly Enriched Uranium (HEU) is the goal of centrifuges; weapons-grade uranium is the most desirable highly enriched uranium- over 90 percent enriched. A single centrifuge might produce about 30 grams of HEU per year. 850 to 1,000 centrifuges, operating continuously for a year, could produce HEU sufficient for one weapon.
Since 1988 Iran expanded its uranium mining and processing capabilities, built a heavy water reactor and associated plutonium production plant and developed a uranium enrichment program. In 1990, Iran imported from China (and failed to report) one metric ton of uranium hexafluoride, essential to their centrifuges. Between 1994 and 1996, Iran also purchased plans and components sufficient to assemble 500 centrifuges from A.Q. Khan.
In early 1995, Russia began reconstructing the Bushehr reactor damaged during the Iran-Iraq War. They also provided assistance designing a heavy water reactor. The repaired reactor was returned to service in 2011. The IAEA visited Iran’s nuclear facilities in February 2003 after international pressure to open Iran’s facilities to inspection. The IAEA inspectors found a pilot enrichment plant designed to hold 1,000 centrifuges with underground facilities to accommodate 50,000. The agency also inspected the heavy water production facility at Arak. In September 2009, the leaders of the United States, France and Britain publicly revealed the existence of a previously undisclosed enrichment site being built near Qom.
Four countries, including Iran and Syria, shared $55 million from a U.S.-supported United Nations program promoting nuclear energy. Iran received more than $15 million from 1997 to 2007 under the IAEA's Technical Cooperation program.
In 2008 the U.S. Energy Department was charged with subsidizing two Russian nuclear institutes, University of Nizhny Novgorod and Institute of Applied Physics RAS, (coincidentally located in same city as nuclear engineering company Atomenergoproekt) allegedly providing key parts for Iran’s Bushehr reactor despite U.S. government efforts to shut it down. Congressmen John Dingell and Bart Stupak notified Energy Secretary Samuel W. Bodman (went from CEO of Fidelity Investments to G. W. Bush Deputy Secretary of Treasury to G. W. Bush Deputy Secretary of Commerce to G. W. Bush Secretary of Energy) that his department had approved projects with the two institutes worth $4 million. Mr. Dingell, in a telephone interview, pointed out that the State Department has accused Iran of using the Bushehr reactor as a cover for obtaining nuclear technologies useful in a weapons program. “We’ve got a bunch of Federal laws that impose sanctions on U.S. companies that develop Iran’s oil,” he said, adding, “Here we’ve got U.S. money providing assistance to help develop a reactor that we’re busy denouncing.”
Mr. Aksford, do you and Mr. Bartholomew drink from the same poisoned well? It's hard to believe that either of you has ever read the Quoran or the Bible let alone have any real comprehension of what you have read. It's time you both came out of your bunkers, stopped tuning into Glenn Beck, Lyndon LaRouche and Rush Limbaugh and stopped parroting their hate speech.
also if you have some free time, which you obviously do.. go read up on Sharia law and tell me where I am wrong. If NBC can give you those facts.
Exuse me Ed, please pass the whiskey. What have I said that was hateful? Actually what I said was pretty well down the middle. You are accusing me of listening to people I have never listened to in my life. I read the Bible quite frequently thank you as many conservatives are Christian in their beliefs.
Ed, I was just being real. You can't bury your head in the sand with out leaving your arse exposed. Wishing the world not to have problems doesn't make them go away. Was that hateful as well? I suppose I am racist because I don't like Obama? haha What else can you come up with that is totally off base? I would love to hear it. And my last name is Oaksford. (Like 2 trees and a truck. One of those american companies that didn't need bailout money)
Nathan, Jeff and Frank,
Are you or were you ever in the military?
I was never, I am a Nurse. All of my friends are still currently in the military or former military.
Actually I have been informed lately that I build bunkers as well. haha
Ed, don't want to startle you, but have you read up on jihad? I consider myself to be somewhat republican free, with a dash of libertarian ideals. Can't stomach any of those you say I listen to.
I will also share the fact that I am also a recovering catholic, but I don't recognize religious belief/disbelief as an excuse for world domination, there is only one holy book in the muslim religion, and tells all of its followers to adhere to its principles.
Mohammed was a mass murderer, and the followers of islam worship those ideals.
Remember Ed, these people are illogical, and so is trying to defend a terror organization hell bent on world domination, disquised as a religion.
Well I was, and I have seen too many people die, get hurt or become so broken from the pointless wars we have fought, so if you want to go after them, sign up grab a weapon and go for it. But as long as you're going to sit here and watch other people die for your perceived understanding, I really don't think that you should have a say. That goes for any politician that hasn't served as well.
I'm sick of people who hide from conflict that get to send others to die for it.
Phil, what would that have to do with my opinion, or my interpretation of what I read, or see from many forms of media?
You can have your opinion, Frank. I just think people who sit around talking about sending kids to war should have to experience it.
Phil, you just disqualified Obama as Commander-in-Chief. Over 2000 soldiers have lost their lives under Obama's watch including the three deadliest years since the start of the Afghanistan operation.
>Korea is testing their weapons in Iran, as well as Iran testing.
Source please, Korea is not testing any weapons in Iran, let alone a nuclear weapon.
>And if we weren't telling them to back off they would have solved the problems over there already because they aren't as diplomatic as we are. Right-wing. haha If the whole world was left wing we would all be happy right? get real.
I'm not left wing at all. You misinterpreted what I said. Israels right wing party is full of santorums, calling for active war.
>there is only one holy book in the muslim religion
There are five Holy books in Islam. Qur'an, the Bible, the Tawrah, the Zabur, and the Suhuf.
CJ when you say the Israeli right wing party is full of "santorum" do you mean like the "spreading santorum" definition that appears when looking it up in google or the candidate Santorum who the definition refers to....either of which is a fairly accurate description....
I sure did, as well as most of Congress.
I don't think that you can be an effective leader of soldiers' lives when you have no undertsanding of what war is.
As a nurse I have seen many people die, and I have saved a lot of lives. I have also seen the end result of the wars as I have worked at the VA in the past. I feel that I do offer a valid opinion, and at no point did I say I agreed with war or condone it. I just think they shouldn't have nuclear weapons.
And I appreciate your service to the country, but last I knew there wasn't a draft. So anyone in there signed up for it. I am currently in college for PT, and I hope to go work on a military base when I get done so I can help those that have been wounded.
There are a lot of ways to serve your country and Humanity with out joining the military. I also took the Asvab test, I missed 3 questions. I was offered a starting E-3 position however, I decided to go another route.
And I am not giving my source for the previous information CJ. That isn't something you need to know.
Phil.... I hate to say it but having come from a family that practically lived the military. And being a vet of 8yrs of service myself I can tell you... Korean War, Vietnam as well as peacetime and Desert Shield/Storm vets in my family all agree on one thing. Anyone who has been through the military and still believes in the statement you made, just doesnt get it at all,but lets look at your statement...
"". But as long as you're going to sit here and watch other people die for your perceived understanding, I really don't think that you should have a say. That goes for any politician that hasn't served as well.""
Speaking for those in my family that I have discussed topics like this, (and believe me the casulties from GW's wars are miniscule compared to the Vietnam War my friend) and we all still believe that what we did and the sacrifices that we made were for EVERYONE to have the right to speak and have whatever say they wish to. Doesnt mean we have to agree with it or support it but Frank, Jeff and Nathan have every right to speak.
Now I havent read the Quaran or Koran yet, but I have discussed with some muslim friends and there are some things in this religion that seem a bit harsh. But there are things in supposed Christian faiths that bother me too. Look up Landover Baptists....claim to be Christian but nto really practising what Christ taught. How about Episcopaliann as well....they dont even believe that Christ is as important as political correctness and numbers of worshipers. There are Christians that bomb abortion clinics, disrespect military dead to push a righteous agenda.
I disagree with things said on both sides of this argument. But I support some of what President Obama has done, he is using more unmanned remote control fighters and special forces groups to extend the smiting arm of the USA. He is bringing troops home and I think one of the positive things to look for in a possible second term is more of this type of thing. Our Naval and Air Forces can also minimize the need to sacrifice so many youn lives in conflicts like GW Bush has fought the last few years.
My final statement though Phil.... I am sick of people who hide behind their service and tell others that they should have to serve before they are "allowed" to speak on anything. Almost as much as the attitude that all muslims are savage jihad screaming fundamentalists. Thats like saying all Christians are judgemental, witch burning, crusaders bent on killing all who dont believe as they believe. Oh wait, lets ask an Aboriginal Amercian (otherwise known as American Indians or Native Americans) What they think about that?
Bigotry is Bigotry..... I'd rather be ignorant than bigoted, at least ignorance can be corrected with education.
>And I am not giving my source for the previous information CJ. That isn't something you need to know.
In other words, it's not true.
Until Israel becomes an official State, as in the United States of America, we owe them nothing. Period.
And this is a United Nations issue, not a United States issue.
BTW, just a side note.....does anyone else believe our nation is more divided ideologically than it is now since the Civil War? The venom, hatred, accusations and disdain displayed by Americans towards fellow Americans is worse than I've ever seen in my half century of life. Why is it essential that we finger point about problems, rather than solve them? Congress is a microcosm of our nation today (except we don't benefit from insider trading).
That's affable and I wish you well. I don't think any nation should have nucs, including us. I just think we have got to get away from this fight first mentality. It doesn't warok, never has, and I'm tired of seeing good people hurt for this nonsense.
As far as the draft goes, no they aren't, but since most recruiters get their greatest number of kids from the lowest socio-economic neighborhoods, I'll argue they aren't there for some old fat politcian's politics. They are there to go to school and make a better way. Regardless, no 18 year old kid understands what war is, just like those who have never done it.
That is actually untrue Phil. In the early post Vietnam era it was, but not since the 1980 or so, and especially since 2011.
I served as a Marine for 20 years, there were young marines from all walks of life. My father was an Engineer, I hardly came from a poor social economic background.
The servicemen and women from the 1980's have been and are even more now bright, dedicated and more than competative with thier piers.
The days of enlist or go to jail went away in the 60's
I have personally served with more than a few enlisted men and women that entered the military with associate degrees.
I site the 2004 presidential campaign when John Kerry advanced that agruement only to be met with a barrage of letters, YouTube and other social media postings from service men and women taking offense at populist misconception
Cj I have heard very similar things as well so Cj's truth is almost as genuine as our need to invade Iraq was....
Nathan, you might want to check your sources, my need to know basis sources said that Iran and NKorea collaberated on nuclear weapons in 2010 and 11, the second test that was done in early 2011 in N Korea was a joint effort. Your statement was so close to what I heard I thought maybe you might have transposed minor details :)
Well Kyle I guess you didn't understand my words, so I'll break them down. I didn't say people couldn't speak, have an opinion or express it. I said they shouldn't have a say in sending kids to die in wars.
Next, I am not for war, or a bigot. I find most of what was said here to be foolish, so I don't quite understand your tirade there.
Last, I'm not hiding behind anything. This country is free, or should be, people can speak their minds until they're blue in the face, but I respect life too damn much to watch a bunch of bomb happy people mouth off about sending more people to die because they don't like the book they read.
Obviously Phil you haven't had any children close to you try to get into the service. You have to have special permisson called a waiver to get in even enlisted ranks without some college under your belt. Another point is there are alot of kids trying to get into the service.... They feel duty bound because they were the kids in that classroom when GW was told about the attacks on that day in 2011. Hopefully some of the Batavian's younger readers will chime in on this forum on this subject.
Yeah Bud, Its funny (not ha ha funny) that you should mention this, I have just recently discussed this with some friends. I totally agree with you about the extreme level of division in this country and how it compares historically. Its at a really scary level right now. Those of you who have paid attention to my posts in the past know that i am a hardcore "righty", and might be surprised to know that some of my closest friends (like people i would happily take a bullet for type friends) are left leaners.
The scary thing about the division and the lines that are drawn in the sand is that fact that many americans on both sides are so focused on what side they are on, they seem to forget we are all AMERICANS first, right or left leaners SECOND. Lets pray a civil war 2.0 is not in our future. :(
Sorry Phil they have as much say in what happens with our national policy as you or I do. I respect life as well but theres something your missing Phil we all die and one of the most basic freedoms we have is the option of going into the military and sacrificing our lives for the greater good of the country. Whats the difference if I choose to put my life on the line in our country's military, or fighting a fire, or as a police officer fighting crime, or maybe even going to a foregin land to spread the Word of God in mission work. The end is the same, we can die crossing the street or just while sleeping... It's everyones choice on what to do to validate our own exsistance, and someone like you saying that they CANT have the opportuntiy to go if they wish to fight and die for our country. If there was a draft that would be a different story.
But you are a bigot Phil.... do you know what a bigot is? lets look at a dictionary definition...
Bigot: A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs.
I can be bigoted in my opinions as well, but I am also aware of my ignorance and try to keep an open mind, I am open to changing my opinion if I learn some facts that make that opinion invalid. Are you?
Phil is dead on about the "Chickenhawks" who want to start wars, but wouldn't go themselves when they were young, and their children typically don't either.
I think it's something like 20% of Congress have actually served in the Military in any form.
"I got in trouble for saying this before, but I like somebody in the chain of command that has smelled a little powder, as my father used to say, who was a World War I vet. If you smelled powder you have a different view, you think twice and you are very careful. If you haven't, it's just one big adventure until you have seen the first body. And unfortunately we don't have enough people -- all the warriors are in the State Department, Rich Armitage, Colin Powell, there are more medals in the State Department than there are in the Department of Defense, unfortunately."
General Anthony Zinni on the Rumsfeld Defense Dept. 2004
His book written with Tom Clancy "Battle Ready" is a great read BTW
The logic of demeaning leaders who make military decisions when they never served is absurd. President Obama took over GM and Chrysler yet has never worked in the auto industry. President Obama has all but taken over healthcare decisions for the American public yet he has never practiced medicine. President Obama has used taxpayer dollars to pick winners and losers(mostly losers so far) in the private sector "green energy" industry yet has never run a company or worked in capital investments. President Obama has meddled in the housing market yet has never been a realtor. President Obama has issued numerous regulations in the banking and credit industry yet has never worked in either. President Obama has made public judgements about how local police departments conduct their business yet has never been a cop. President Obama has presided over an operation where guns were allowed to funnel into the hands of drug cartels in order to track them yet has never been a drug lord (as a side note, Obama called Susan Fluke to apologize for Rush calling her a slut, but has yet to call the family of Brian Terry, the border agent killed by one of those guns). President Obama has nixed funding for charter schools for low income kids in the D.C. area yet he himself attended an expensive private high school in Hawaii. I could go on and on but the point has been (over)made.
Jeff; everything you write regarding the hypocrisy of President Obama is correct in my view. The power of the chief executive of our government has gone WAY too far. No man or woman is qualified to nor should wield that kind of power. Be it domestic or worldwide. That's not how our system of representative government is supposed to work. Congress has to stop rubber stamping these foreign involvements by our military. If there is a legitimate threat to our security, then it will pass the test of a vote for a declaration of war. There will always be a boogeyman, there will always be unrest, there will always be sabres rattling somewhere. But they and most recent Presidents except for possibly Bush Sr. who had smelled powder BTW; would rather consider political gain or loss over the life, death and wounding (physical and psychological) of our citizens.
I say it sucks.
Yes Kyle, I am very open to outside facts, swaying my opinion, so now I am not a bigot. You are not stating facts, you are stating your opinion. I respect it, and have not reduced myself to calling you a name. I personally believe that people who do not know what they are sending people to, shouldn't. That is my opinion. I have not called these people any names, unlike you, and I was very open to Nathan's contributions, even wished him well.
So what you're really saying is that because I don't agree with you that I am a bigot? That's fine. I have had many young kids that I worked with in Germany join, then die for what? I'm sorry Kyle, I don't believe in these wars, and all I want is someone who knows what it's like to have seen that first hand to make these choices. Not those who sit in ivory towers that will never be affected.
I respect your service, and that we disagree, but I am not a bigot sir. I am very open and willing to discuss anyone's views and opinions.
Phil, we have the joint cheifs to advise the president and the congress on all available options, its not like they go into these decisions with a blindfold.
Charlie, Obama also got Bin Ladin, and has kept the country from sinking any deeper into the republican sinkhole created by 8 years of bush/chaney.
Jeff, there's a big difference between using taxpayer money to save a bloated industry and sending boys off to die on faulty intelligence and bellicose posturing.
I joined the military when I was 18. I explicitly said I was ready to die for my country if it came to that. I never "smelled powder." But I'm glad I lived another 32 years and hope to live another 20 or 30 or 40, even.
If my youthful bravado had been given a chance, I wouldn't have had that chance.
I'm glad I'm still here to debate these issues, but I wouldn't wish upon any young man or woman the death or dismemberment or mental anguish that goes with war, except where a direct and verifiable threat to freedom existed.
For all of my life, war has been waged based on conjecture, fear and faulty intelligence. That isn't enough to send off our boys and girls to die in some foreign land.
Howard, I was speaking to the logic of leaders making decisions without having direct experience in the field of decision. Our Constitution lays out that elected civilians make the decision to go to war and sworn soldiers carry it out. The only way to get around this being the problem people are making it out to be would be a Constitutional amendment requiring military service as a prerequisite to being a Congressman. Is that what people on here are suggesting?
Jeff, I was speaking to the logic of leaders making decisions based on experience and pointing out that there is no comparison between stealing money from taxpayers to prop up failing industries and sending men off to die. There are magnitudes of difference, so the comparison doesn't work.
And nobody is suggesting that the Constitution be amended. But that doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate criticism of leaders who advocate for war yet have never been willing to put themselves online. There is an inescapable hypocrisy there.