I voted yes, but with some hesitation. I believe that my small community's leadership has resident's best interests in mind - perhaps better than a larger government entity would.
That being said, taxes are killing us, and we are most likely leaving the state when I finish school. Any move to save governmental spending and gain better control of runaway taxes is worth consideration.
It's funny how a minor tax increase costs me $300.00 and a major tax savings saves me 3 bucks.....
Forget it boys. Having your own personal politician to hug and hold is a dream of most New Yorkers. The more government the better is what most of your neighbors want regardless of what they say on this site or complain about in the coffee shop. They wrap all that pork up in a blanket of lies and tell you it’s localism or feed you on the idea that more government is cost effective.
I voted yes simply because the town of Batavia seems to have be heading in the right direction as opposed to our "city" which is losing businesses. Lets face it...truth being told, the town of Batavia shut down businesses in the "city"...and a plus would be less ppl on the payroll because the governments would merge and there would be cuts. We are payin into both city and county governments. If we merge then it would be just one set of taxes am I correct? What happened to that issue anyway? It seems it was just pushed aside. So for the benefit of the city taxpayer we should dissolve our "city" government. lmao and only those on the city council and their relatives would be against this. PS I put my house up for sale cus I really wanna get out of NY cuz I am tired of most what I work for going into someone elses pocket.
This city's government does need a trim Howard. It is overtaxing and overspending.
I voted No. But the layers of government shouldn't have overlapping services. (i.e. seeing state, county and local police forces patroling the city is ridiculous.)
Please, no one is this "city" would disolve it. People want what they want; and then they want to bitch that they have to pay for it. That simple.
You go to most people and say, "Hey! If we consolidate the police with the Sheriff and the Fire with the town to save millions", you get nothing but people pissed off. Show them though that those two agencies are more than 50% of the spending and you still get nothing. Oh well.
Local government provides the most effective contact any citizen has with civic authority. From a purely mathematical standpoint, my voice is diluted by ratios: Village of Bergen, 1:1200; Town of Bergen, 1:3200; County of Genesee, 1:58,000; 139th Assembly District, 1:128,000; New York State, 1:19,541,453, and United States, 1:307,006,550. I agree public services should be as economical as possible. Consolidating services, crossing jurisdictions is an effective approach. I do not see general elimination of representative bodies serving the public's best interest.
Phil, if you want the sheriff's office to take over City of Batavia operations you'll have to explain to taxpayers from the rest of the county why they should put up with a county tax increase to pay for it.
Mary, aside from an urban renewal program that wiped out hundreds of businesses, the problem is not loss of businesses- it's loss of customers. Customers do not shop downtown; they shop at the big-boxes on the west side of town. As long as customers choose to shop at Tops, K-Mart, WalMart, PetMart, Lowes and Home Depot, window shops will remain on the endangered list. The era of the downtown department store is over. No business-person could afford city real estate to compete with a suburban big-box. If city residents want offerings other than not-for-profits in their Main Street storefronts, they need to patronize those businesses that remain.
We've had this discussion before... Many recall the pre-urban renewal stores- remember the streets lined with parked cars and sidewalks teeming with shoppers. The fate of downtown cannot be blamed entirely on the wrecking ball. Suburban department stores predate the demolition. Viability of downtown is simply a matter of changing behavior. ...Of course the behavior has to be changed before downtown goes out of business.
In a separate thread, readers were suggesting options for vacant property on Ellicott. Why not something that draws shoppers- like a farmer's market? Weather enclosed... Something that would be a boon to all the struggling businesses, providing a consistent flow of customers. ...And why not a performing arts center in the Latina's footprint?
Chris why should taxes go up if we get the county to take over for the city police dept....The city taxpayer pays the same country rate for taxes and we get less county services..I think we should be taxed at a lower county rate..Its the city taxpayers that is getting ripped off right now..Why should we be subsizing the sheriffs dept.
C.M., there examples all over the country -- Corning in WNY springs to mind -- of thriving downtowns.
Downtowns that thrive were not destroyed by urban renewal.
Walmart and the like suck a lot of life out of local retail, but in Batavia, Walmart alone (or Veterans Memorial Drive) can be blamed on the state of Downtown.
Not that our Downtown is a total loss. Writers here bang on Downtown on Batavia all the time, but it's not that bad -- there's some darn good businesses downtown that deserve our support. It's not what it once was and there are at least four vacancies that would be nice to fill, but our downtown is far from the failure/ghost town some would make it out to be.
One of the biggest issues so far is fair competition with national chains. On a national scale, for example, Walmart has received some $8 billion in tax subsidies to fuel its growth. In Batavia, as I understand it, Walmart (and Target, and the other big boxes) did not get stipulated tax subsidies, but they all get a tax subsidy of sorts by being in the town since the town has no town tax.
One thing I would like to see happen if there were consolidation is that stores over 30K square feet in the town be required to pay the same taxes as any business currently in the city. The chains should compete on the same level playing field as the locally owned business.
Mark, make government bigger, costs go up. A consolidated law enforcement agency would eventually lead to more middle management, meaning more expense for taxpayers.
Also, the trend in law enforcement is away from bigger, consolidated departments. NYC, for example, is going back to the precinct system. The closer law enforcement is to the community, the more effective it is.
Howard,
The idea of taxing stores over 30k square feet at city rates would be one more reason for the town to vote NO on any merger.
And while smaller is better, there comes a time when a declining, aging, population and higher property taxes will call for police merger or sheriff takeover.
Chris, if this pipe dream came to be, the city would end up paying the county for extra protection. It would cost the city less and wouldn't impact the rest of the county at all.
Phil, when are you going to let go? Didn't that ass kicking you took at the polls teach you anything?I told you not to talk about this crazy idea when you were running. I told you this idea was doomed to failure. People like their government in these parts. They only like to talk about cuts and complain about their taxes. This is NY for god sake, half the population is on dole. You can't stand in the way of their livelihood.
C.M., I've not proofed my previous comment -- so haste, yes ... that said, you write, "Customers do not shop downtown; they shop at the big-boxes on the west side of town ..." (and I wouldn't say I'm arguing with you, just reacting).
Which is probably what I'm reacting to. I think Batavia's DT would have many more customers if not for urban renewal.
We're probably on the same side in our distaste for Big Boxes, but I think Batavia is unique in that Big Boxes are not entirely at fault for the economic imbalance. Urban renewal is a huge factor here.
And John, what I would say you're predicting is a decline in services, when current level of services can no longer be supported (I hope that never happens). A merger isn't a cost savings, per se. There would also need to be a conscious decision to reduce the level of service.
I'm arguing against the idea that consolidation/merger means a reduction of costs. I don't believe it. I'm not arguing against, per se, the idea that a need to reduce costs will eventually be so great that Batavia can no longer afford its own police force. If that happens, it won't be "cost savings" on the same level of service; it will be an unavoidable decision to reduce the level of service.
And, frankly, as a matter of personal prejudice, and with no slight to the Sheriff's Office, eliminating the Batavia Police Department will mean a tremendous and tragic loss of service.
Howard, "a tremendous and tragic loss of service."? According to the numbers I've been currently compiling over the last year we will have a bunch to discuss within the next 6 months. Unless what I've gathered so far takes a dramatic turn with the last few items I'm waiting for, the numbers I'm finding show our BPD as one of the most costly and inefficient departments not only in NYS but on the entire east coast. I hope to have all my numbers and statistics compiled and ready for analysis by Nov. or Dec. Like I said, I'm still waiting on some information and I suppose it could turn things. I'll keep you posted.
Howard,
There would be a loss of service and knowledge of the area and residents. But unless Albany changes the business climate in NY, we will continue to loss population. Personnel costs are not likely to go down and sooner or later the tax rate will not be sustainable.
The choice then will be to reduce the current size of the city force or go with the County.
The rules of Math get suspended when you talk about unions. My bad.
The increased cost to the county would be paid for by city residents. This cost would be substantially lower than what we pay now, plus we will no longer have the direct cost of pensions.
Howard,
This reason:
And, frankly, as a matter of personal prejudice, and with no slight to the Sheriff's Office, eliminating the Batavia Police Department will mean a tremendous and tragic loss of service....
is basically how a lot of people feel, which is why it won't happen. Instead the contracts will continue to rise, the city will stay a city, nothing will happen because that is what people do in this area and everyone will see their taxes rise.
Boards like this will stay filled with people who complain, but no one will demand a vote to change it, no one will push for it, or show up to a meeting and God forbid, if someone does, it won't pass.
Phil, for me it's not just a matter of personal feeling. It's a combination of my background in law enforcement and previous study/writing about community policing (years ago).
Others may react emotionally to the idea of a loss of local police force, but in my experience, it's also a factual issue. A police department that isn't connected to the community is a department that is going to fail in crime fighting.
A consolidated department would lead to a decline in protection for both city and county residents.
We're blessed with a highly professional and well trained law enforcement community -- county, city and state -- consolidation would only serve to upset that balance.
While I hear all that, there is nothing to say that a consolidated "Metro Force" through the county could not be just as connected.
Nobody questions our officers professionalism, or that they are an asset to the community. I am speaking of costs.
The city's population continues to decline, while costs continue to rise. A large portion of our current police force will be retiring in the next five years or so. We will not only have to hire new officers, but due to current contracts, pay long term pensions and health care costs.
How long does a city that is losing 2 - 5% of it's population every few years continue to absorb these costs?
To be fair, Howard, it's not just the Police that we should be talking about. Why do we duplicate so many services between the city and town? Why two DPWs? Why so many government buildings? And so on.
The Greater Batavia area has only about 21-22,000 people? We have got to be more realistic if we are going to survive.
Phil, a metro force isn't likely to enable a guy like John Zola to patrol the city for 30 years. In a consolidated force that same guy is likely to get shifted around the county. That weakens law enforcement in the surrounding towns and the city.
So you are going to tell me that Hilton for example is less protected then Ogden? Hilton being patrolled by the Sheriffs and Ogden by its own police force?
I think that is absolute garbage. I lived in both and both were equally protected. I would go as far to say that Ogden cops started to feel oppressive in their patrols.
I don't need the same cop patrolling my street for 30 years, I just need someone qualified with compassion. I don't care how long they have been on the job so long as they can be competent.
cm, there is absolutely nowhere for me to shop downtown I failed to see the move of city hall bringin more business downtown. And with the economy the way it is the customer base has dwindled so ppl are gonna go to walefinchinamart. Its sad but its true the only way for survival is to combine and dissolve. If not we are on the road to total oppression depression and recession there is nothing here for our young. Doesnt anyone see all the for sale signs that are up????Am I the only one not wearing rose colored glasses????Im lookin out of state for work and a house hope it happens soon.
btw...I dont know wat brockport has done right but i been thru there on a sunday and there are ppl downtown....ppl!!!!Shoulda woulda coulda ....shoulda brought the tech center downtown then the college kids would have kept business up and running ...noooo put it out in the boonies where kids will drive to go somewhere and that would be rochester or buffalo...
I voted yes, but with some
I voted yes, but with some hesitation. I believe that my small community's leadership has resident's best interests in mind - perhaps better than a larger government entity would.
That being said, taxes are killing us, and we are most likely leaving the state when I finish school. Any move to save governmental spending and gain better control of runaway taxes is worth consideration.
It's funny how a minor tax increase costs me $300.00 and a major tax savings saves me 3 bucks.....
.
.
I vote yes. There are way to
I vote yes. There are way to many levels of government, and it would be a start.
Forget it boys. Having your
Forget it boys. Having your own personal politician to hug and hold is a dream of most New Yorkers. The more government the better is what most of your neighbors want regardless of what they say on this site or complain about in the coffee shop. They wrap all that pork up in a blanket of lies and tell you it’s localism or feed you on the idea that more government is cost effective.
In Erie County yesterday, the
In Erie County yesterday, the villages of Sloan and Williamsville just voted to keep that layer of government. And, it wasn't even close.
Local isn't the layer of
Local isn't the layer of government that needs to be trimmed.
Nor is it the cause of high taxes and overspending.
I voted yes simply because
I voted yes simply because the town of Batavia seems to have be heading in the right direction as opposed to our "city" which is losing businesses. Lets face it...truth being told, the town of Batavia shut down businesses in the "city"...and a plus would be less ppl on the payroll because the governments would merge and there would be cuts. We are payin into both city and county governments. If we merge then it would be just one set of taxes am I correct? What happened to that issue anyway? It seems it was just pushed aside. So for the benefit of the city taxpayer we should dissolve our "city" government. lmao and only those on the city council and their relatives would be against this. PS I put my house up for sale cus I really wanna get out of NY cuz I am tired of most what I work for going into someone elses pocket.
This city's government does
This city's government does need a trim Howard. It is overtaxing and overspending.
I voted No. But the layers of government shouldn't have overlapping services. (i.e. seeing state, county and local police forces patroling the city is ridiculous.)
Yeah maybe we should
Yeah maybe we should consolidate....oh wait.
Please, no one is this "city" would disolve it. People want what they want; and then they want to bitch that they have to pay for it. That simple.
You go to most people and say, "Hey! If we consolidate the police with the Sheriff and the Fire with the town to save millions", you get nothing but people pissed off. Show them though that those two agencies are more than 50% of the spending and you still get nothing. Oh well.
Local government provides the
Local government provides the most effective contact any citizen has with civic authority. From a purely mathematical standpoint, my voice is diluted by ratios: Village of Bergen, 1:1200; Town of Bergen, 1:3200; County of Genesee, 1:58,000; 139th Assembly District, 1:128,000; New York State, 1:19,541,453, and United States, 1:307,006,550. I agree public services should be as economical as possible. Consolidating services, crossing jurisdictions is an effective approach. I do not see general elimination of representative bodies serving the public's best interest.
Phil, if you want the
Phil, if you want the sheriff's office to take over City of Batavia operations you'll have to explain to taxpayers from the rest of the county why they should put up with a county tax increase to pay for it.
Mary, aside from an urban
Mary, aside from an urban renewal program that wiped out hundreds of businesses, the problem is not loss of businesses- it's loss of customers. Customers do not shop downtown; they shop at the big-boxes on the west side of town. As long as customers choose to shop at Tops, K-Mart, WalMart, PetMart, Lowes and Home Depot, window shops will remain on the endangered list. The era of the downtown department store is over. No business-person could afford city real estate to compete with a suburban big-box. If city residents want offerings other than not-for-profits in their Main Street storefronts, they need to patronize those businesses that remain.
We've had this discussion before... Many recall the pre-urban renewal stores- remember the streets lined with parked cars and sidewalks teeming with shoppers. The fate of downtown cannot be blamed entirely on the wrecking ball. Suburban department stores predate the demolition. Viability of downtown is simply a matter of changing behavior. ...Of course the behavior has to be changed before downtown goes out of business.
In a separate thread, readers were suggesting options for vacant property on Ellicott. Why not something that draws shoppers- like a farmer's market? Weather enclosed... Something that would be a boon to all the struggling businesses, providing a consistent flow of customers. ...And why not a performing arts center in the Latina's footprint?
Chris why should taxes go up
Chris why should taxes go up if we get the county to take over for the city police dept....The city taxpayer pays the same country rate for taxes and we get less county services..I think we should be taxed at a lower county rate..Its the city taxpayers that is getting ripped off right now..Why should we be subsizing the sheriffs dept.
C.M., there examples all over
C.M., there examples all over the country -- Corning in WNY springs to mind -- of thriving downtowns.
Downtowns that thrive were not destroyed by urban renewal.
Walmart and the like suck a lot of life out of local retail, but in Batavia, Walmart alone (or Veterans Memorial Drive) can be blamed on the state of Downtown.
Not that our Downtown is a total loss. Writers here bang on Downtown on Batavia all the time, but it's not that bad -- there's some darn good businesses downtown that deserve our support. It's not what it once was and there are at least four vacancies that would be nice to fill, but our downtown is far from the failure/ghost town some would make it out to be.
One of the biggest issues so far is fair competition with national chains. On a national scale, for example, Walmart has received some $8 billion in tax subsidies to fuel its growth. In Batavia, as I understand it, Walmart (and Target, and the other big boxes) did not get stipulated tax subsidies, but they all get a tax subsidy of sorts by being in the town since the town has no town tax.
One thing I would like to see happen if there were consolidation is that stores over 30K square feet in the town be required to pay the same taxes as any business currently in the city. The chains should compete on the same level playing field as the locally owned business.
Mark, make government bigger, costs go up. A consolidated law enforcement agency would eventually lead to more middle management, meaning more expense for taxpayers.
Also, the trend in law enforcement is away from bigger, consolidated departments. NYC, for example, is going back to the precinct system. The closer law enforcement is to the community, the more effective it is.
Smaller is better.
Howard? Are you arguing with
Howard? Are you arguing with me? I think we're on the same side here... Aren't we?
Actually, you left out a few
Actually, you left out a few words in haste; I can't tell.
Howard, The idea of taxing
Howard,
The idea of taxing stores over 30k square feet at city rates would be one more reason for the town to vote NO on any merger.
And while smaller is better, there comes a time when a declining, aging, population and higher property taxes will call for police merger or sheriff takeover.
Chris, if this pipe dream
Chris, if this pipe dream came to be, the city would end up paying the county for extra protection. It would cost the city less and wouldn't impact the rest of the county at all.
Phil, when are you going to let go? Didn't that ass kicking you took at the polls teach you anything?I told you not to talk about this crazy idea when you were running. I told you this idea was doomed to failure. People like their government in these parts. They only like to talk about cuts and complain about their taxes. This is NY for god sake, half the population is on dole. You can't stand in the way of their livelihood.
C.M., I've not proofed my
C.M., I've not proofed my previous comment -- so haste, yes ... that said, you write, "Customers do not shop downtown; they shop at the big-boxes on the west side of town ..." (and I wouldn't say I'm arguing with you, just reacting).
Which is probably what I'm reacting to. I think Batavia's DT would have many more customers if not for urban renewal.
We're probably on the same side in our distaste for Big Boxes, but I think Batavia is unique in that Big Boxes are not entirely at fault for the economic imbalance. Urban renewal is a huge factor here.
And John, what I would say you're predicting is a decline in services, when current level of services can no longer be supported (I hope that never happens). A merger isn't a cost savings, per se. There would also need to be a conscious decision to reduce the level of service.
I'm arguing against the idea that consolidation/merger means a reduction of costs. I don't believe it. I'm not arguing against, per se, the idea that a need to reduce costs will eventually be so great that Batavia can no longer afford its own police force. If that happens, it won't be "cost savings" on the same level of service; it will be an unavoidable decision to reduce the level of service.
And, frankly, as a matter of personal prejudice, and with no slight to the Sheriff's Office, eliminating the Batavia Police Department will mean a tremendous and tragic loss of service.
Howard, "a tremendous and
Howard, "a tremendous and tragic loss of service."? According to the numbers I've been currently compiling over the last year we will have a bunch to discuss within the next 6 months. Unless what I've gathered so far takes a dramatic turn with the last few items I'm waiting for, the numbers I'm finding show our BPD as one of the most costly and inefficient departments not only in NYS but on the entire east coast. I hope to have all my numbers and statistics compiled and ready for analysis by Nov. or Dec. Like I said, I'm still waiting on some information and I suppose it could turn things. I'll keep you posted.
Howard, There would be a loss
Howard,
There would be a loss of service and knowledge of the area and residents. But unless Albany changes the business climate in NY, we will continue to loss population. Personnel costs are not likely to go down and sooner or later the tax rate will not be sustainable.
The choice then will be to reduce the current size of the city force or go with the County.
Sorry Charlie, I forgot. I'm
Sorry Charlie, I forgot. I'm dense.
The rules of Math get suspended when you talk about unions. My bad.
The increased cost to the county would be paid for by city residents. This cost would be substantially lower than what we pay now, plus we will no longer have the direct cost of pensions.
Howard,
This reason:
And, frankly, as a matter of personal prejudice, and with no slight to the Sheriff's Office, eliminating the Batavia Police Department will mean a tremendous and tragic loss of service....
is basically how a lot of people feel, which is why it won't happen. Instead the contracts will continue to rise, the city will stay a city, nothing will happen because that is what people do in this area and everyone will see their taxes rise.
Boards like this will stay filled with people who complain, but no one will demand a vote to change it, no one will push for it, or show up to a meeting and God forbid, if someone does, it won't pass.
Good times.
Mr. Paine, Is this the first
Mr. Paine,
Is this the first hint of a run for City Council? It would make for a great 4th ward primary.
Phil, for me it's not just a
Phil, for me it's not just a matter of personal feeling. It's a combination of my background in law enforcement and previous study/writing about community policing (years ago).
Others may react emotionally to the idea of a loss of local police force, but in my experience, it's also a factual issue. A police department that isn't connected to the community is a department that is going to fail in crime fighting.
A consolidated department would lead to a decline in protection for both city and county residents.
We're blessed with a highly professional and well trained law enforcement community -- county, city and state -- consolidation would only serve to upset that balance.
Howard, While I hear all
Howard,
While I hear all that, there is nothing to say that a consolidated "Metro Force" through the county could not be just as connected.
Nobody questions our officers professionalism, or that they are an asset to the community. I am speaking of costs.
The city's population continues to decline, while costs continue to rise. A large portion of our current police force will be retiring in the next five years or so. We will not only have to hire new officers, but due to current contracts, pay long term pensions and health care costs.
How long does a city that is losing 2 - 5% of it's population every few years continue to absorb these costs?
To be fair, Howard, it's not just the Police that we should be talking about. Why do we duplicate so many services between the city and town? Why two DPWs? Why so many government buildings? And so on.
The Greater Batavia area has only about 21-22,000 people? We have got to be more realistic if we are going to survive.
Phil, a metro force isn't
Phil, a metro force isn't likely to enable a guy like John Zola to patrol the city for 30 years. In a consolidated force that same guy is likely to get shifted around the county. That weakens law enforcement in the surrounding towns and the city.
So you are going to tell me
So you are going to tell me that Hilton for example is less protected then Ogden? Hilton being patrolled by the Sheriffs and Ogden by its own police force?
I think that is absolute garbage. I lived in both and both were equally protected. I would go as far to say that Ogden cops started to feel oppressive in their patrols.
I don't need the same cop patrolling my street for 30 years, I just need someone qualified with compassion. I don't care how long they have been on the job so long as they can be competent.
cm, there is absolutely
cm, there is absolutely nowhere for me to shop downtown I failed to see the move of city hall bringin more business downtown. And with the economy the way it is the customer base has dwindled so ppl are gonna go to walefinchinamart. Its sad but its true the only way for survival is to combine and dissolve. If not we are on the road to total oppression depression and recession there is nothing here for our young. Doesnt anyone see all the for sale signs that are up????Am I the only one not wearing rose colored glasses????Im lookin out of state for work and a house hope it happens soon.
btw...I dont know wat
btw...I dont know wat brockport has done right but i been thru there on a sunday and there are ppl downtown....ppl!!!!Shoulda woulda coulda ....shoulda brought the tech center downtown then the college kids would have kept business up and running ...noooo put it out in the boonies where kids will drive to go somewhere and that would be rochester or buffalo...